Season 3 returns on Monday, May 1st!
June 7, 2022


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Are you a lion or a panda?


It seems like a silly question – but in today’s episode, we realize the answer may actually teach us a lot about ourselves.


“There’s constant opportunities of attunement or opportunities forpeople to play, and then there’s a lot of times the people that don’t wanna play are the ones that are most miserable.” - Jeff


In this episode, we debate the virtues of panda vs. lion, recall the fond days of trapper keepers, and Dimple explains the concept of Bird by Bird to Jeff.


Episode 2 also dives into the themes of psychological safety, human-centered leadership, the importance of play and how curiosity and empathy work together.


“Every single moment we have is a new moment. Everyday is a new day of school.” 

- Dimple


In This Episode


  • [02:09] Jeff’s practice of the idea of attunement
  • [05:28] The panda or lion debate
  • [06:36] Human-centered leadership based in empathy
  • [09:41] Treating everyday like it’s the first day of school
  • [12:26] Have you ever won an argument?
  • [14:19] Psychological safety between Ted and Sam
  • [18:00] Providing people the opportunity to be themselves
  • [19:19] Are you a lion or a panda?
  • [21:38] Watching the “Ted Lasso” series with closed captioning
  • [24:48] The importance of a follow-through as a leader
  • [27:52] The anonymous suggestion box
  • [36:00] A healthy type of culture at work
  • [41:18] The importance of patience and gestures
  • [43:32] The “Bird By Bird” metaphor
  • [47:08] What we learned from S1E2 of “Ted Lasso”


Resources & Links

  • 4 Steps to Creating A Human-Centered Organization

  • Solve Your Problem With Play

  • Jeff’s Positive Psychology Playlist


Dimple (00:00):

Just a quick heads up that these are adults having adult conversations about things that take place on a show where the adults use a lot of adult language, all this to say there might be some salty language ahead. So please plan accordingly


Ted Lasso Clip

Sam (00:11):

Coach I’m, I'm sorry.


Coach Lasso:

You know what the happiest animal on earth is? It’s goldfish. You know, why?





Coach Lasso:

Got a 10- second memory. Be a goldfish.


Dimple (00:30):

What would Ted Lasso do? This is a question that we explore in each episode of this podcast. We take the lessons we learn from Ted Lasso and we apply them to the real world through the lens of leadership and positive psychology. My name is Dimple Dhabalia.


Jeff (00:44):

And my name is Jeff Harry, and neither of us have ever recorded a podcast. But as Ted lLsso says, taking on a challenge is a lot like riding a horse. If you're comfortable while you're doing it, you're probably doing it wrong.


Dimple (00:58):

We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. And that it helps you find new ways to believe.


Dimple (01:13):

Well, hello. I'm so excited. I love this episode. So today we are talking about Season 1 Episode 2, this is written by Brendan Hunt and Jason Sudeikis and directed by Zach Braff, which is pretty cool. So let's dive in. So before we jump into that, you know, I know that last week we, so we had kind of talked about how we wanna try to put some of this stuff into practice, you know, in our own lives and, and kind of see how it goes, because I think one of the things that really comes up for me is I keep watching this. I'm like, yeah, you know, like there's Ted and how he behaves. And then like the people respond, but like, it's not always that easy in real life, you know? Like I feel <laugh>, I feel like the people around me don't respond like the people in the show do sometimes. And so, uh, so yeah. I'm curious, remind me what you decided you were gonna do and how it went.


Jeff (02:09):

Yeah, so I was focused on attunement, which I think of just gonna keep as like my thing in general. So I had mentioned last week that the idea of attunement, I, you know, I had learned it again from Dr.  Stewart Brown, which is all about, you know, when a baby looks at the mother, they become attuned. And when they do the study of brainwaves, the brainwaves like match up. They're like identical. Right? So yesterday I was holding a baby <laugh> I just happened to be holding a baby, not mine.


Dimple (02:44):

Yeah. I mean like, yeah.


Jeff (02:46):

And I was reminded again of it. So, but all week I think I was practicing it and now I'm forgetting all the other moments of attunement and I'm sure they're gonna come back up. But yesterday I went to someone's birthday party and it's like, you know, it's like one of the first times in a while that I've been around that many people, you know, because you know of what we're in. And I, so I was just like meandering around this, like outside bar and really constantly thinking attunement like, pay attention, like pay attention to energy, like follow your curiosity, all this stuff. And it was so interesting because like, I was connecting with this person and they were like, oh, well I love your Lego bow tie where I usually wear this like nerdy Lego bow tie. Right. And they were like, these kids love Lego. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Yeah. I've heard that before for, but I was like, um, but then later on, I like moseyed on over to the kids and the family. And like, we talked for a while about Lego. Right. And like, I've had that conversation before, but then I go and I'm walking and I’m, remember, I'm in this like bar in Oakland, California. And then I see this like basketball, like, uh, uh, like jersey or something. And it says Marion Catholic. And I was like, wait a minute. That's my sister's old high school from Chicago from the summer.


Dimple (04:11):

No way. Oh, wow.


Jeff (04:12):

And I was like, you played for them? And she goes, Jeff. And I'm like, this is, this is someone I went to like my mom's church. Like when I was, you know, like, I don't know, 5, 10 years ago, I don't even know. But this random person from the suburbs of Chicago is now in this bar. And the only reason we notice is because of her, she comes over, we talk for a little bit, but then after this and talk about attunement after this, as we're talking, we bump back into the Lego kids and the Lego, she has her dog, the Marion Catholic person has her dog and the kids start connecting with them. So then we start all talking and then I left them and they became attuned. And I was like the ripple.


Dimple (05:00):

Oh wow. Yeah.


Jeff (05:01):

And when you're like, just open to the curiosity of it and not knowing where it's going to lead and just being open to it, I feel like I had a totally different experience just interacting with people because I'd be like, Ooh, I feel like I resonate with that person. Let me just be in their vicinity. And then something fun would happen. And then diving into Episode 2 just a little bit. Oh, you know?


Dimple (05:27):

Yeah, yeah. No, let's jump in. Let's jump in.


Jeff (05:28):

But it's that, it's that idea, right? Like there's so many gestures, especially in Episode 2 of people wanting to be like, hey, do you wanna play? Do you wanna play? Like, you know, he shows up with biscuits and then he is like first concert, last concert. And he starts singing because he is like, do you wanna play? And then you see that over and over again where like, uh, Keely gets out of her car and she goes, uh, panda or lion. And then of course the other person, of course, what, Rebecca, is it Rebecca? Remember, I haven't, I've only watched this, you know, once,


Dimple (06:08):

It's still weird to me, but whatever


Jeff (06:09):

Rebecca's like, was like, oh, that's so stupid. I'm not gonna have that debate. But then as she's walking away, they start debating and they say, panda she's like, no, I need to be part of this debate. Right. And then Jamie, they asked Jamie and Jamie's like, I don't wanna play. So it's just like, there's constant opportunities of attunement or opportunities for people to play. And then a lot of times the people that don't wanna play are the ones that are most miserable. That was what’s fascinating to me.


Dimple (06:36):

Yeah. Hundred percent. And it was interesting. Like, you know, I watched the episode a few times. I usually will watch it straight through and then I'll sit down and take notes and then I'll watch it again. But what kept coming up for me was like, for me, this episode was really about, I write a lot about human-centered leadership. And so this idea of like, you know, and, and to me, human-centered leadership is totally based in empathy. And I just kept noticing that like, Ted has such a way of holding space for everybody that he needs. With such empathy. Right. And so like, when I talk about empathy, I think a lot of times people are like, oh, you know, like empathy's soft and I don't know how to do it, this and that, but like, empathy is really like, you don't have to do anything extraordinary. Right. It's like, it's about just what we call, like creating a ministry of presence. Like you're gonna be present in that moment to that person. And there were so many places in this episode that like, you know, right up front where he and Beard are walking to work, that very first, um, and he asks Beard, you know, like, well, how are you feeling? And it creates this space where Beard can be vulnerable and say, you know, like I'm actually a little bit nervous and, and right away, Ted, like validates that feeling and, you know, talking about there's no such thing as last day jitters. He does the same thing with Nate a little bit later when they're out on the pitch, you know? And, and then Nate's like laughing at his joke and Ted realizes like, Nate doesn't know, what's funny. And so, you know, but he creates the space and like Nate admits like, yeah, yeah. I don't really know what's funny. And he says, yeah, it's hard to know anymore. Same thing with Sam and Jamie with the birthday. Yeah. Um, and with Jamie about, you know, when he, he brings him into the office at like, after the, the, the match and does the whole positive reinforcement, but he does it in a way that's like, you see the, the shift in body language, like Jamie comes in and sits sideways, like not even facing him. Right. And then as soon as Ted is like, you know, I, you're, you're really one of the best athletes I've of coached. He like kind of stands up and faces him. And, and you hear him like kind of mumble, like yeah. Yeah. Like I work really hard and Ted's like, I know I see it. And it's just, he brings him back to like this space of like, I see you as a human being. And it really was such a contrast to, like, I saw the stuff you were writing this week about Right. And I was, yeah, like, so I, I just feel like it's such a contrast to some of the leadership that we see out there, right?


Jeff (09:15):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just, uh, for anyone that's listening to this and doesn't know about at the time when this was happening, um, the CEO last week fired 900 people over Zoom on a six minute call. And during the call, he said, this is really hard for me. <laugh>, you know, I've done this before,


Dimple (09:41):

This was all about him


Jeff (09:41):

Hopefully, hopefully I don't cry. I cried the last time. Hopefully I'll be stronger. And it was all about him. So just seeing the contrast between that guy, Vishal Garg and, and Ted Lasso is, is striking. I think the other part that I, I really resonated with, um, from the very beginning of the episode is when Ted is just like first day of school.


Dimple (10:06):



Jeff (10:07):

And he's so, and he's so patient, right. He recognizes the wanker, you know, chants. And it's just like, you know, let's see if we get them, win them over, you know, you know, like he is, he's, he's in it for the long game. And I think that part is also so fascinating to me as a leader, right. As a human-centric leader, you don't have to win this battle. Right. You don't have to win this moment. And I think that's the difference between him in his play attunement space and Rebecca, right. Rebecca needs to win every moment. Right. She needs to win every moment in the press, you know, she needs to win every moment with Higgins, you know, like it just, everything always has to be perfect. And then still she's not happy. Right. And when you're able to like show up with the, the wonder of the first day of school, like, that's amazing. Imagine you said that to yourself every day, this is the first day of school. Whatever happened before, this is the first day of school I'm ready to start. My gosh. It would be such a more amazing day.


Dimple (11:12):

Yeah. Like we talk in mindfulness, we talk about, um, you know, approaching life with a beginner's mind because every single moment we have is a new moment. Right. Like we have not experienced this particular moment. So really like every day is a new day of school. Right. Which by the way, I used to love the first day of school <laugh> I was that girl, like, I, I love the month leading up to, to the first day of school.


Jeff (11:35):

The anticipation, right? The buying of the clothes, the trapper keeper that, oh, the, you know, all that stuff, what am I gonna wear?


Dimple (11:43):

Yeah, no, I love that. But you know, going back to something, you were just saying, like this idea of the, the wins throughout the day, you know, like, and I think you're right. Like, I think when people are in that negative space where they're putting other people down and they're judging and, and all of that, it does in that moment, sometimes it can feel good. Right? Like it can feel like, oh, you know, I stuck it to them. Like I got them. Uh, but in the long run, like it's not gonna bring you any kind of like satisfaction long term or joy, or, you know, the things that we're actually kind of looking for. It's kind of a hollow, a hollow victory, you know, if you will like, yeah. Um, and so that's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it that way. Um,


Jeff (12:26):

Well, I even think about this. Have you ever won an argument, right? Like maybe an argument with customer service or an argument with someone that like, you have a lot of beef with, you still don't feel that good about it. You just don't like you do at the time, but then, you know, it's just like, it it's insatiable. If that, you know, I don't know if that makes sense, going back to my notes. Right. And it's just like they’re so, what, the part that I really loved that I think is hard when you are a human centric leader is then you're constantly looking for any type of progress. So <laugh>, so when, when Higgins is like Caesar you later, when like, like we're gonna have salad. And then she's like, oh gosh, this is so annoying. And then as he's leaving he goes, Caesar you later. And then he pops back in. He's like, because he's like, that's the moment, right? The moment of attunement or play of like, oh my goodness. You wanna play? I wanna play, I know you wanna play. Like, I feel it over and over again. Right. Yeah. But then even at times when one isn't fully open to playing, like when he is talking to Sam and he gives Sam one of his army men,


Dimple (13:43):

I know, that’s funny.


Jeff (13:44):

And then, yeah. Sam's just like, you know, well, I, I don't like him, you know, the whole idea of American, you know, he is like, oh, imperialism,


Dimple (13:52):

Imperialism, yeah.


Jeff (13:54):

Even when they know they say it with a certain level of like respect and, and aberration and, and connection. And you can feel it happening between Sam and Ted. And then all of a sudden, Jamie Tartt is just like, oh gosh, you know, and then you can just feel the exact opposite of like, and it also destroy whatever human-centric moment that is happening at that time.


Dimple (14:19):

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And you know, that, that moment between, uh, Ted and Sam, I think is a great example of psychological safety, right. Because it's like to, and, and again, going back to this idea of Ted's ability to use empathy, to hold space for people, because, you know, Sam's relatively new. He hasn't been doing great and now, like they just gave him this gift, which you can see, like really makes an impact like that moment where he says, I think it's great. However, they, he said, thank you. Like, like I could feel that, you know, and you see the other Nigerian put players all put their hands on their heart. And it was just such a meaningful moment. So you could see it had an impact on him, but, but Ted, you know, is a new coach. Sam doesn't know him, all that well, but he's already created this space where Sam feels comfortable being like, I don't want your gift. Like this is not a gift to me, you know? And, and that, that's huge because, you know, to be able to create a space where people can feel like they can say that to you and know that you're not gonna take it personally, you're not gonna hold it against them. And I know that's kind of like a little thing, like it's a little, you know, but like, how would you feel if you get a gift? And they were like, yeah, like, I, I don't actually want this, you know, for me, I, I know like I'd be really hurt and I'd be like, oh, okay. But he's created this space where people can show up that way.


Jeff (15:40):

And he also, and he also found his favorite snack from his hometown. Even like that, that that's such a small thing. But again, these small gestures of like, I care about you outside of what you can do on the pitch for me. And I also found it really fascinating that he leads them out on the fields right before then they have the birthday party.


Dimple (16:07):

I know!


Jeff (16:08):

Usually people would be tense. They're like, you know. And instead he is just like, no, this is the opportunity for us to like, you know, recognize his birthday and him being, just celebrating the fact that he, like, he's a human being that is alive and then let's go out and like, let's let's compete. Right. I think that was really…


Dimple (16:30):

Well. And, and the other part about that, which I thought was really interesting is, you know, when he and Beard are sitting, uh, and we should definitely talk about the suggestions. Cause I'm curious about your thoughts on, oh yeah. Like anonymous, anonymous suggestion boxes. But, but you know, when they're in the, the pub and Beard says, you know, Sam, Sam’s stats are down all across the board since he left Nigeria. Maybe Premier League is too much for him. And Ted's like, no, you know, he just needs to feel comfy here. And so, you know, Beard mentions it’s his birthday and he says, yeah, let's do something for him. And he says, you know, let's, let's nudge that ship in the right direction. And so like, he has such a, a sense of like what people need. And what's interesting is that, you know, he, he has, them do that birthday surprise right before they got to play. And then if you look at when, uh, after the, the match, like they've lost and everything, but, um, the, um,


Jeff (17:26):



Dimple (17:27):

The announcer. Yeah. Like really hones in, on, you know, what, what Sam in particular did. Right. And so it's like that little act of let's have this party impacted Sam to such a degree and like boosted his confidence, made him feel part of something bigger. Right. Made him feel like he belonged enough to where like, and I don't know, maybe I'm just like, um, making too much of it. But I think like it's interesting that like, he was able to go out and just really shine after he's been struggling for such a long time, you know?


Jeff (18:00):

Well, what comes up for me for that is like, if I'm Ted right. First game, I got one of the players to buy it, like that's progress. Right. And in, if you were attached this to like the real world, like I'm a huge Golden State Warriors fan, right. And there's a player named Andrew Wiggins, who's now on the team and is, he was the number one pick at one point he was considered like one of the best players. And then he was really bad on all of his teams. And finally this year he says, this is the place where I can be me. And you've heard that so many times from players in all different types of sports that all of a sudden, started playing their best because they feel like they can actually show up fully as themselves. And that is what Ted Lasso is providing. He's providing people the opportunity to be themselves on the pitch. And I love that.


Dimple (18:55):

Yeah, I love that too. And that that's like, that's such a big part of the work I do too, is really helping leaders recognize that people on their teams are whole human beings. Right. So, we, we have to let people show up, uh, as themselves, like the more that we can create space to do that. People surprise us and they, when we give them the space to do that, you know, uh.


Jeff (19:19):

So then I have a question for you, which is really a weird, but also I loved it. Question was like, who would you rather be a lion or a panda?


Dimple (19:27):

I was gonna ask you that, uh, that's a good question though, right. Like, I feel like in the past, I definitely would've said lion. Right. For all the reasons that, that Rebecca, um, kind of points out. And, but I think like, especially in the last year, like I've really, I think my perspective has changed a lot too. And so pandas just seem so happy. Like they’re so content and they're just doing their own thing. And, you know, so like, I, I feel like I'd probably say panda at this point, you know.


Jeff (19:58):

Nice. I first love how Rebecca was like, there's only one writer.


Dimple (20:02):

Exactly. Yeah.


Jeff (20:03):

It's lion. And that makes sense. Right. Because she has to show up in that like attack mode or allow any of the vulnerability to get in there. Of course, I would say panda. I’m a play person come on and also like, I love the movie Kung Fu Panda.


Dimple (20:22):

Oh, I know. That is so, yeah.


Jeff (20:24):

The whole idea of someone that doesn't think they should be, you know, the master that doesn't know what they're doing, that they feels bad about like themselves and their weight and all this stuff. But like, but just wants to like play, you know? Like out of everything, pandas just wanna play, they just wanna be fully present in moment and play and they don't, they're not trying to win anything, you know? <laugh>


Dimple (20:51):

Yeah. It's for the joy.


Jeff (20:53):

It’s the last thing they’re trying to do.


Dimple (20:53):

Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen, um, Stillwater on Apple TV?


Jeff (20:59):



Dimple (20:59):

It's a cartoon as well. And it's about this panda, but he is like, this evolved panda. Who's like all, it's a meditation and stuff. It's the cutest show I've ever seen. And like, this was another one of my brother-in-law's finds and, um, we all got hooked over the pandemic. We have no kids in this house and the three of us would sit there and watch Stillwater episode after episode because he is he’s so like, he's just there, like to be present and in the moment and really just enjoy life, you know? And so yeah, definitely panda these days. Um, but yeah, I thought that that was such a funny question. But do you watch the episode with, um, the close captioning on?


Jeff (21:36):

Oh no. Or sometimes? Yeah.


Dimple (21:38):

So I do now because I never realized how much I missed. And one of the funniest things was in this panda discussion, you know, that last scene where Rebecca's just like staring at the two of them and plotting her next thing. Um, you know, and they're like,


Jeff (21:56):

She's also envious. She's also envious because she wants to play, they're still having this conversation and she's like, but also like I'm interested.


Dimple (22:06):

Yeah. And also she's like, well, ‘cos you know, she was trying to figure out like how to get Ted in trouble. And she's like, right. So this is like something I can do where I can make it look like there's something going on here. But with the, the close captioning, you can actually hear what their conversation is. ‘Cos normally you're so focused on what she's doing. You're not really paying attention. And it's hilarious. ‘Cos he's like talking to her about how pandas hate their weight and bamboo. And like, I mean, it was just like this random stuff. It was so funny. And so, yeah, I love the, I love having those on now because I'm like, there's moments where either, I just didn't understand what the person said or stuff is said kind of under their breath and like, I miss it. And so it's been enlightening to see.


Jeff (22:50):

And I didn't even know that, that I forgot. Right. I didn't even know that that actually was relevant because she was doing a photoshoot later on. Yeah. With like a panda and a lion, like, I didn't know. And then they show the [anda and you're like, oh yeah, that doesn't, doesn't work with vodka. But again, like pandas would never sell vodka. That would not be a, pandas wouldn’t sell anything, like pandas would just be like,


Dimple (23:14):

I'm in my tree and my bamboo.


Jeff (23:16):

Right. They drink vodka, but they wouldn't sell


Speaker 3 (23:19):

<laugh>. Can you imagine I keep seeing those videos of pandas like rolling down the, or actually the ones with like their hand


Jeff (23:27):

Sliding down the slides


Dimple (23:30):

And the handlers, like keep trying to like bring them back in <laugh>


Jeff (23:34):

I posted, oh, I love that one. I posted a video the other day of literally a panda just splashing in water. Like that's all, you know, he was doing and someone on Instagram wrote me and was like, I needed this. Like, it was like, oh my goodness, this, it was just like, it’s just this panda being. But I think that like, you know, this sounds a bit corny, but it's just like, there is something powerful about how Ted Lasso is just being, and then it's giving other people permission to be. The other part that I really loved was yes qnd we can get to the suggestion box. Um, but the water pressure, man, the water pressure people don't realize the small things like that. That if you can start, especially if you're a leader, if you can start by just addressing the small things. And I think like all leaders want to be grandiose and be like, now I'm a leader. And look at me and I'm gonna put my foot down to show everybody I'm a leader. You know, I've seen that so many times it's like, Ugh. But if they just, someone just showed up and then fix something that people just thought would never ever get fixed. Cool.


Dimple (24:48):

Yeah. Well, and it's a great example of like a follow through, right? Like, so leaders will often just like, oh yeah, we're gonna do this and we're gonna be here for you. And we, you know, we care about you and then go behind their words. Right. And so that's why we have a lot of people who are just like, yeah, whatever, like it's not, nothing's gonna change. And this was such a great example of, yeah, we're gonna follow through with like, if you give us something meaningful, we're gonna follow through with it. Before, but I, I wanna go back for a second while it's in my mind about the panda thing, just to close that, because sorry, there was something that's coming up.


Jeff (25:25):

Because we gotta talk more about pandas. I love it.


Dimple (25:26):

Yeah. Uh, but it is interesting. Right. Cause Rebecca automatically jumps to lion and Ted automatically jumps to Panda and you look at like how they show up in life. Right. So Rebecca is very much, like you said, in that space of needing to like protect herself and be fierce and all of that. And Ted is in that space of just kind of being content and like, you know, and playful and all of that. And so, uh, yeah. Anyway, sorry, that just came up for me as, as we were, um, talking about that.


Jeff (25:54):

Well, you guys had brought that up and made me think of like, oh, what is that panda like here? Because also panda are quite curious. Right?


Dimple (26:04):

Yeah, that’s true.


Jeff (26:05):

And again, what is he slowly doing whenever he's interacting with people, because think about some of the people that are now his advocates that you would never even think of. Right. Um, the, the bar keeper, the bar owner, like, remember when everyone's chanting, which by the way, also they're bonding off of him as well. Like even though they hate him, like at least they're bonding. Right. So like least there's, he's gained her respect by simply connecting and talking with her and listening to her. Right. Um, and even asking like, what does wanker mean? You know, um, and then, uh, the, the, the younger soccer player, you know, like the, the student and she's, again, doesn't even know him and is willing to be like, you played like Chi, like it's great. Yeah. Like, and he is like, That is true.


Dimple (26:58):

You're right. Yeah.


Jeff (27:00):

And also I don’t know anything about soccer. So let me from you of all people, not, not from, but I'm gonna learn from you. Who's like a, like a high school student just playing soccer. I love that level of humility.


Dimple (27:16):

Yeah, absolutely. And just the fact that he knows, like they didn't play well, he knows, he knows nothing about it, but he also knows they can be better, you know? Yeah. Like when he walks into Rebecca's office and he says that, he says, you know, I know we can do, we can play better than this, better than we play today, you know? Yeah. And he has that like vision, like he knows what they're capable of. And I, I really loved that. Um, but going to the suggestion box, you know, I'm curious, like, what do you, what do you think of this idea of anonymous, um, anonymous suggestions or anonymous, you know, like operating an anonymity.


Jeff (27:52):

So I've done suggest, when I was a leader at my last organization, we did that. And I think it's the intent behind it. Right. So like the, like I've created suggestion boxes, I've wrote in them. And most of the time they just go into the black hole of like nothingness, no one ever responds, no ever. I like the fact that there are two ways in which to do it. Right. That there, there isn't an anonymous part because sometimes people are not ready to actually speak up then becomes a burden on the one person, like, like Roy to be like, this is what everyone else feels. I've been that person where I have to like, collect everyone's answers. And then I share it with the leadership team only to get like knocked down. And then a lot of people saying, oh, that's just your opinion. No, that's the opinion of all these other people. Well, I don't see it. We don't see it. Yeah. So then we, then I would guide them towards the suggestion box or whatever it is to share that stuff. It still fell into a black hole but you know, that's been my relationship with it.


Dimple (29:00):

Yeah. I dunno. Like I have mixed feel. Yeah. Like I have mixed feelings about it because I, on the one hand, I agree. I think sometimes people aren't ready and anonymity gives them that opportunity to have a voice. Right. Um, even if numbing gets done, like is done with it, but at least, but I think like, I don't know. So one thing I’ve, like before I left my last organization, it was a lot of what I was kind of talking about with leaders, you know, in the leadership program that I was running, like in helping leaders to like, to me, to have that courage, to actually own your comments, you know? Like I think that that's a really important piece of it, but I understand that in order to do that, you have to have, again, that psychological safety or that space where you feel like, oh, I can be honest about whatever it is, you know? And I think most, most, most spaces in our society aren't that way. And so that's why we see a lot of like these anonymous, like, you know, whether it's comments on people's, you know, whatever social media or whatever, like, but, but I think anonymity sometimes creates like a, a level of cruelty that is just really unfortunate, you know, ‘cos even in the suggestion box, like, you know, it was like


Jeff (30:16):

Majority was just insults. Yeah, absolutely.


Dimple (30:18):

Yeah. Um, and even then he didn't let that get to him. He just kind of was like, okay. You know, like, like to that scene where they go out onto the pitch and, and the whole stadium's yelling it at him. Like I can't imagine being in that position and just being like, all right, let's see what happens. Like I would be freaking out, you know, like to know that this many people are so, I don’t know, it just, I, I can't imagine just being so calm about it and being like, okay, you know what, I mean I'd like to get there. <laugh> I'm not there yet. You know.


Jeff (30:50):

It's interesting because I think of the fact that he probably experienced that also at Wichita State.


Dimple (30:57):

Oh, that's probably right.


Jeff (30:59):

And like, and it's just like it, like if you've been there before, and I remember when I used to play, I used to play soccer back in the day at high school. Um, and even when I went to visit my nephew and see his games when they were playing away, like there's actually an enjoyment a little bit, when you are playing away and people are hating on you. Something about that. And not in that way of like, oh, I'm gonna get them back or whatever it is. But just like, there's at least I'm getting a response. At least there's some sort of reaction and at least people are in the stands. Like there's like they, the worst would be for them to just like leave and then they don't even have…


Dimple (31:44):

Yeah. Indifference is often worse


Jeff (31:47):

Indifference, I think is worse. So I think there's an opportunity, and this kind of reminds me of whenever I used to teach, uh, kids that would teach these like stem programs. And there would always be that one kid that I would be like the worst. He was just like mean and rude and you know, or just not very like, you know, communicative. And I was like the whole time I was like, I'm gonna get this kid. I'm gonna get this kid to high five me, you know, at some point at some point during this eight week session or whatever this camp we're gonna see, but I'm gonna have a connection with this kid by the end. And by the end, usually because I put in the work that kids started to notice and was like, yeah, finally broke through. And it's like one of the greatest feelings when you get somebody. And I think he feels that way towards like Rebecca, right, or Jamie, of like, if I can win this one person over, oh my gosh. I will have probably won over the entire locker room by then


Dimple (32:47):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and his, you know, like one of his great aspects of connection is just getting to know people's names. Like, I, I really picked up on that too. Like first day of practice, he knows every player's name. Uh, he walks into that press room again, he knows the reporter's names, you know? And I was just like, wow, like that, you know? And, and that makes a huge difference. Right? Like knowing that someone knows your name is really powerful. The other thing though, uh, I was thinking about a lot was, uh, going back to follow through, right. Like showing up and following through. So like a lot of times people get frustrated because you see poor performers or you see bullying or whatever, and leaders don't take action. Right. Like they kind of shy away from it. And in this episode, like we see him repeatedly call out Jamie, but like, you know, so there's the thing with the suggestion box that where they're collecting,


Jeff (33:48):

Oh, the money. And he puts the gum in there


Dimple (33:49):

And he puts the gum in there and you know, like Ted could have just like not said anything, but he immediately goes up. And what I appreciated is he doesn't accuse him, but he says, right. You know, he asks him with curiosity, like, you know, like, did you do that well, why did you do that? You know? And then the other bigger part of this though. Um, well, and then he does that later as well, but I love that he, he talks about like Nate being part of the team and this idea that, and so when, like, when he goes into Rebecca's office for part two of, um, you know, his favorite concert discussion, um, and she's just like, I don't have time for this every day. And so, and he, and he knows, like he knows he's pushing a, a, a boundary, but he's like, look, you gotta see it from my perspective, like every person in this building is a member of this team. And, you know, and that's like that. I love that because so often you've got leaders sitting in these places where they're, you know, they don't see every person as a member of the team. They don't see every person as a human being a lot of times, you know? And so to see him, not just saying that to her, um, but to be acting on it with people like Nate, where, you know, he's not only standing up for him and kind of putting that out to the team to be like, Hey, Nate is a part of our team. Like he may be in this position or whatever, but he is an important part of this team, but also building Nate up in that way too. Right. Like where he's like, Hey Nate, Nate's like, you know, me, you know, and, and you know, and his whole thing about, yeah, let's just assume you're my, my go-to or my default, Nate, you know, until we get a new Nate, but, you know, and just really like bringing him into this and making him feel like, oh, like somebody actually sees me. And, uh, and I am a part of this, but what's interesting is I noticed at the end, like when they're in that little party at the end of the locker room, you know, I think Nate is still like, he's not convinced yet. Cuz he's like kind of standing off to the side on his own. Like everybody else is like together and he's just kind of off. Like you can see he wants to be in there, but he's just not ready yet.


Jeff (36:00):

Well, what's interesting. So when I use, so I used to run these like team building events. Right. And we would say that to people be like, Hey, we're, you know, we're doing this one activity. If you are not into it, feel free to just hang out on the side. And if you notice this in recess, a lot of kids would actually do this where they would sit on the side wanting to play, but not ready to play, but it's just being in the vicinity is almost enough. And you reminded me, you know, when I used to work for this one organization, the stem organization, you know, we had 400 staff and I was like, I guess one of the leaders, like I was the VP of stuff. I love talking to people on every level. Like I love talking to the person that just arrived. Right. Or the person that like ran like this, you know, I don't know. It was like a store manager assistant, you know, I loved talking to each and every person just to get their vibe. And a lot of times I didn't realize until later on, they'd be like, oh my goodness, you want my opinion? Like, aren't you one of the higher ups, which I didn't really understand, but they, and I think that's something that's worth, I don't think a lot of leaders realize that the impact they could possibly have, if they simply were willing to have more discussions and reach out to more people that are not part of their team, just to connect with them. That is what I see as culture. Right? Like those small gestures and Ted is constantly invested in that type of culture.


Dimple (37:37):

Yeah. I, I really love that couple other things real quick. Uh, the army men, I've been reading a lot of like comments in the Ted Lasso groups and stuff. And people talking like really like honing in on which army men he gives to whom and stuff. And I love that this first one that he gives to Rebecca is, you know, someone like in that defensive position ready to like attack. And he tellslike, we'll put this here as your first line of defense in case that guy comes back. But even that, like, you know, he saw her getting attacked in that press conference and, you know, immediately came up afterwards to just check on her and like to see how she was doing. And um, you know, and they don't have that relationship yet, but he's really trying to create that and, and let her know like, Hey, I care. You know? Um, and so I liked that little gesture of just like giving her that, uh, that little army men.


Jeff (38:31):

I don't know why it sparks this for me, but I remember I had to go back to rewind to hear this. But at the very beginning, when he sees the high school, you know, student, you know, her dribbling and he goes sometimes the best way to stick it to the men, you know, is to put it between their legs. And I was like, what is, why is that there? And I was like, wondering like who’s man in the situation, or what's the situation. And I'm like, I wanted to know what that meant. I didn't know what the symbolism of that was. And, and I kind of like maybe tied it to like, when is it who's? Is it Rupert? Who's the, from The Independent?


Dimple (39:09):

Oh no, no.


Jeff (39:11):

Trent Crimm from The Independent, I feel like many times Ted will walk right into conflict. Right.


Dimple (39:19):

Yeah. Yeah.


Jeff (39:20):

He'll walk into it with like the certain level of curiosity. Right. So he asks Ted and then gets that really hard question. And then he walks into Rebecca's office, you know, at a really tough time. Like he’s, like as much as he's the happy go lucky guy, he's willing to be in the uncomfortability and to sit in that with the other person in a very Brene Brown, like I'm not doing sympathy from the top, but I'm actually going in the tunnel and sitting there with you. And that's how I felt like he really was like able to truly show his empathy and all, while also sharing like gifts from his son.


Dimple (40:02):

I know. Well, and, um, you know, at the end, when he is, um, when he runs into the girl again at the pub and they have that exchange about like, you know, the game not going well or whatever, and he steals the ball from her, she says, okay, I underestimated you. And he, and he says, uh, see, no one sees me coming. And like, I it's. So just like quick, you know, because it's like, at the end of the episode, and I'm like, yeah, like no one sees him coming, you know, he's so disarming. And then the other thing was like, uh, the announcers, when they're like going through and talking about Sam’s play and this Matt, they talk about how, um, the team looks disjointed, uninspired and joyless. And, and it's really interesting to see that, like, those are all the things that Ted seems to like over, over the course of, like, we'll see over the course of the season, right? Like is he really brings that team together. He inspires them. And he actually brings that joy into that, um, group, which I just think is such great foreshadowing.


Jeff (41:08):

And what's so great about this. I might have mentioned this last week, you know, Golden State Warriors plug again, but the teams that have the most fun, right?


Dimple (41:17):



Jeff (41:18):

The teams that are actually resonating aren't even as focused on the result as they are focused on attunement. Right. They're focused on the process. They're focused on the, and I think that's what I, if, if there was like some of the biggest takeaways I took from this is like patience and gesture, patience and gestures of, of, I don't know, it's not positivity, but patience and gestures of connection. And I use the word gestures specifically because it's like, you’re, gestures, ,eaning like, you're never, you're not always gonna get that connection. Right. And that's not what you're trying to do. You're not trying to win connection. You can't win connection, but you can give gestures of connection or gestures of play. And sometimes people will be down to do it. Like Haggins like, you know, screaming and other times he'll be singing to her. And she's like, I don't have time for this. And he's like, okay. You know, and then he just keeps going, like more gestures. He's constantly giving gestures, but he's so patient. Right. He doesn't care that they won their, I mean, he does care, but he is like also recognizing it's the first game. You know, what, what would we expect? Like, this is a, I'm here for a long game, you know, as long as they're willing to keep me. And I think that's what would help anyone that's doing work like this is that I'm invested. Right. And I'm willing to do this for like the next six months, year or two years. However, however long it takes.


Dimple (42:47):

Yeah. But there's like such a level of emotional intelligence too, though. Right. Like, and to that point of him being, uh, like no one sees him coming, even in that scene where he's singing to her, the Kenny Rogers song, he's watching her. And he's seeing that she's starting to get really frustrated and he sings that whole like line, you know, you gotta know one to hold of, no one to show him. And then he, and then at the end he like points to her and she says, stop. Right. And that's like the end of that lyric. And I'm just, yeah. That's like, that's brilliant. But like he knew, like he knew, like he pushes her right up to that line, which I think is interesting. And to your point about perseverance, and I know we're, we're, uh, should start wrapping up in a minute, but this last reference to Bird By Bird, have you read that book?


Jeff (43:31):

Yeah. What is that? I didn't understand that.


Dimple (43:32):

Yeah. So Bird By Bird is the book by a writer named Anne Lamott, like one of my favorite books and it's all about writing, but I love that they use it in this context cuz she uses it in the context of like writers shouldn't try to like, uh, you know, write this big story or whatever, like take it like little pieces at a time to write up into the thing. And it comes from like her childhood where like, I think her brother was working on a, a project, um, about birds and I think like waited too long or whatever. And so their dad gave him this advice of like, well just take it bird by bird, you know? And so he says it in reference to Beard saying I hate losing. And he says, well, you know, bird by bird. And it's just this idea of like perseverance and patience and really taking things one step at a time until you get to, you know, like you overcome whatever it is, uh, that you've experienced. And I, I just loved that, like such a beautiful reference and like so subtle, you know,


Jeff (44:33):

I love that. Um, oh, what was it? I forgot. I'll remember it next time. Like there was a Japanese term that I would reference at our old, um, oh, Kaizen. It was, it was our theme for one year. And the whole idea of Kaizen is just like small progress, right? Just small, like just a little bit each day. And you're just building off of that. But one of my favorite parts probably of that entire show, the entire season being that I've only watched once and I don't remember all of it, um, is, um, when you find ut he makes the biscuits, like you find out he makes the biscuits, I have forgotten it. I thought they said they showed it later on. I didn't realize it was Episode 2 where they actually showed it because I so badly wanted to talk about that. But I was like, that is amazing because the whole time, you know, she has Higgins driving all over London. Sure. Richmond trying to find these biscuits and being like, these are horrible. And the whole time this guy is taking probably 2 hours out of his day, at the end of the day to make these biscuits and like, and the secret obviously is love and like sugar. And it's just that level of gesture that like…


Dimple (46:01):

Yeah. Especially like set against the fact that at that moment she's


Jeff (46:07):

At that, yes.


Dimple (46:08):

Plotting like, yeah, take him down.


Jeff (46:11):

And even if he knew he probably still make the biscuits. Because again, he's like, you know, this is, I understand. Like I, I hear, you know, I get, you know, um, and um, oh, that scene just, I dunno why it resonates with me so much.


Dimple (46:27):

Yeah. I mean, it's really adorable too, but, and it kind of brings full circle to the other thing that comes out of this episode, which is be a goldfish. Right? So yes, all the things that people are saying to him or whatever, he's got that approach of taking that ten-second memory and letting go of it and such a simple phrase, be a goldfish. Cause when you think about it, a lot of our stress comes from us being in our heads and like rethinking and overthinking and overanalyzing and, and this idea of being able to let it go so that we can focus on where we're at now and move forward, um, is so powerful.


Jeff (47:08):

This other thing you just said, cause this epiphany. So at the end of the episode, you see him being a panda and her being a lion. And, and what's interesting is when I left that episode, I felt so warm inside, but I could see someone else watching that episode and being so angry at her. So it's also asking us the audience, what do you wanna be right now? Are you a lion? Are you panda? Like, how do you wanna feel at the end of this episode, it provides you choice and you get to decide how you wanna feel.


Dimple (47:46):

Um, I love that. I love that. Such a great, great, good place to kind of wrap it up. So what do you wanna take into next week? Like what lesson are you gonna apply this week?


Jeff (47:58):

So this is actually gonna be really interesting. So, um, and I'll try to be as brief as possible. So I'm on a podcast called Dateable. I don't know when this episode is gonna come out here but you know, I'm on a podcast called Dateable and the challenge is to go on a 24-hour date.


Dimple (48:14):

Yeah. I can't wait to hear about this


Jeff (48:16):

This weekend. 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM on Saturday and then 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM on Sunday. And, uh, she plans the first day I plan the second day and we've never met, never. So this is a blind date. I'm like nervous. I haven't dated in two years. So I don't even know what, I don't even know how to go on a, an hour-long date. And I'm about to go on a 24-hour date. So, two things that I’m gonna look for, for myself and apply is from the first episode attunement, constantly looking for those opportunities to attune and constantly offering gestures of connection, but also, you know, understanding if they, they do not come. But the other part that I'm gonna put in, which I think is gonna be really helpful for me is patience. Is that if like the first hour or two hours, doesn't go well, heck the first 12 hours, doesn't go well that I'm constantly still showing up with that Ted Lasso patience and perseverance and bird by bird


Dimple (49:22):

Bird by bird


Jeff (49:23):

And all that stuff, you know? And if I could do that, then I think it'll be a really fun adventure, regardless of what, however happens. I'm gonna show up as a panda, that’s what I’m gonna do, I'm gonna show up as a panda


Dimple (49:35):

<laugh> I love that. I know. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Yeah, that's a hard one. So I, I like the idea of bird by bird because there's so many projects I'm working on that it would be nice to, to remind myself to approach it that way. But I think I'm gonna kind of build on last week and, and go with be a goldfish because I think that, uh, this is another area where I get easily kind of caught up in, uh, overthinking things and just, um, letting you know, an interaction sit with me too long, especially on one of the projects I'm working on right now. <laugh> like, I see that happening a lot. I think, especially as it relates to that, I'm really gonna try to, uh, approach with the, be a goldfish mindset and see if I, you know, if it makes a difference and if I can kind of let things go, that's my plan for next week.


Jeff (50:26):

Good luck! Being a goldfish, being a panda. That's what we're doing.


Dimple (50:30):

Yeah. Yay. Okay. This was awesome. And I'd still like, I feel like there's so much stuff we didn't even get to. Like, there's just so much in each episode, but, uh, this was so fun as always. And uh, once again, I appreciate you so much.


Jeff (50:45):

Thanks so much. This was fun.


Dimple (50:48):

Thanks so much for listening to What Would Ted Lasso Do if you got any nuggets of Ted Lasso wisdom from this episode, try them out in your life and let us know what happens @wwtldpodcast on Twitter, Instagram, or at our website,, where you'll also find a full transcript of the show. We love hearing what other Ted heads took away from the episode or details or perspectives that we might have missed.


Jeff (51:17):

And if you do like the show, please subscribe and head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating. It all helps. We don't know exactly why, but it does. So in the spirit of believing in hope, believing in believe, please help us out


Dimple (51:35):

And thank you to Podify and Sam Davidson for producing our show to Kajal Dhabalia, for our visuals and graphics and Kenzie Slottow for our theme song. And most of all, thank you to all of you for listening.


Jeff (51:45):

Ted Lasso could simply just be another or show the binge watch. Or if we challenge ourselves to consistently ask the question, What Would Ted Lasso Do? It could change the trajectory of your life. It has for us


Dimple (52:02):

So join us again next time as we explore another episode and ask ourselves, What Would Ted Lasso Do?