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June 21, 2022

For the Children

For the Children

Why does it feel so scary to be vulnerable – especially with our friends? And why do we always have to be accountable for our actions?

Those are the questions we answer today as we explore this episode’s themes – including why being kind to one another starts with being kind to ourselves, and the importance of courageous communication.

Jeff also explains his theory of kindness and how to deal with different kinds of a-holes at work, while Dimple discusses her issues with political correctness and the difference between being right and being happy.

“The reason why so many of us can be mean to others is because we've been beating ourselves up for so long.” – Jeff

In this episode

  • (4:29) Kindness can be challenging
  • (5:45) Dimple’s take on self-kindness
  • (7:24) The episode’s theme: Being available for friends, and vulnerability
  • (10:02) Analyzing Rebecca’s character
  • (13:10) Effects of toxic people and relationships
  • (15:28) Power dynamics  
  • (19:12) Feeling righteous and justified
  • (23:25) Painting yourself as the “hero” of the story you tell
  • (25:08) Courage and honesty is key in difficult conversations
  • (27:48) The fine line with friendships 
  • (28:19) Befriending colleagues
  • (30:38) Two-faced workmates
  • (31:24) Political correctness 
  • (35:56) Taking accountability for what you do
  • (38:37)  Sorry, can’t make a change 
  • (46:08) “Don’t let the wisdom of age be wasted on you.”

“We can do whatever we want but we have to do so with integrity and be accountable to ourselves and to people around us.” – Dimple

Resources & Links

 

Transcript

Dimple (00:00):

Just a quick heads up that these are adults having adult conversations about things that take place on a show where the adults use a lot of adult language, all this to say, there might be some salty language ahead. So please plan accordingly.

[Ted Lasso Clip]
Ted Lasso (00:11):

Now, listen, you two knuckleheads have split our locker room and when it comes to locker rooms, how I like ‘em just like my  mother's bathing suits. I only wanna see it in one piece, you hear me. Be fixing this. Come in with the biggest issue you got with each other and go. 

Roy Kent
He’s a  piece of shit. 

Jamie Tartt
If his brain was on fire, I wouldn’t piss on his hair

Ted Lasso
Alright hey, you don't need to be best friends. Be great teammates. Think about Shaq and Kobe, right? Lending him a carton, heck even Woody and Buzz got under each other's plastic.

Dimple (00:42):

What would Ted Lasso do? This is a question that we explore. In each episode of this podcast. We take the lessons we learn from Ted Lasso and we apply them to the real world through the lens of leadership and positive psychology. My name is Dimple Dhabalia,

Jeff (00:57):

And my name is Jeff Harry, and neither of us have ever recorded a podcast. But as Ted Lasso says, taking on a challenge is a lot like riding a horse. If you're comfortable while you're doing it, you're probably doing it wrong.

Dimple (01:10):

We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. And that it helps you find new ways to believe.

Jeff (01:26):

I don't remember. I only committed to it on a Friday. It is Monday. How could I have forgotten? Why does this happen for lots of  time?

Dimple  (01:40):

Uh, yeah, that was funny when you showed up this morning and asked me, and I couldn't remember what you committed to either. Uh, but I was just saying that I think it's interesting that we are talking about these lessons and how great they are and how we wanna be able to emulate them and stuff. But it's a lot harder in practice than we realize, because there's just so much intentionality required. <laugh> and so it's really easy to just forget, you know, so yeah.

Jeff (02:08):

Also the idea of like, you know, if you're committing to something each week, then you're trying to incorporate more things each week, right? Yeah. So attunement was my first one, being a panda was the second one, being present so that I have no idea what the third is. It does make me think of this. Alan Watts quote, where he basically was saying how like, there really is, future does not exist. All we have is the present. And like, that's what we need to be. If we focus on that, then whatever happens will happen. You know, the future will lay out how it lays up and we spend so much time on the future or the past. And we barely spend any time in the present when the present is all that we have and was like, who, woo

DImple  (02:52):

That's true. That's so true. And it's funny that you said that. So my thing that I was committed to doing was practicing kindness, which I like to think that I'm a relatively kind person anyway, but I think we can all stand to be a little bit,

Dimple (03:07):

I know, right? I am, I'm terrible. We can all find a way to be a little bit kinder in our day to day interaction. And so I had plenty of opportunities and that was fine. And you know, everything from just, like, little acts of kindness, like actually this feels like a big one these days is on the road. Like, I don't know if it's, you know, because people were cooped up for so long. Like people are just like jerks on the road. Yeah. So, uh, so I was, uh, driving yesterday and uh, this guy let me into the lane and, and I actually like raised my hand in the rear view mirror to thank him. Yeah. You know, like, I just feel like that's such a little gesture, but it's like an acknowledgement, like thank you for doing that. And, um, you know, so, so little things like that.

Dimple (03:53):

So I had, um, as you mentioned, we have a bit of an abbreviated time this time between recording. Normally we take about a week and this time we took a weekend. So yeah. So I had a few chances and that went fine, but what did come up for me was similar to what you were saying, which was realizing that we operate on autopilot, you know, so much in our lives. And if we're not paying attention, you know, again, because we have this inherent negativity bias. So, you know, it's a protection mechanism. So kindness is not necessarily our default. It's not that we're bad people or whatever, but I think to really be kind like there, there is a level of intentionality that has to be there. Um, and we have to be present and paying attention to actually do that.

Jeff (04:39):

Yeah. I think the other part is it's really hard to be kind, right. It takes us a ton of effort right now. Like hold on. There was, um, I'll find the quote soon. Um, but there was something about like, you know, one of the greatest traits of a person is simply their ability to care. And it's really hard to care right now. Yeah. Like you're just overwhelmed and everyone is stressed out. Whether you're see it in the airport or, you know, in traffic or on the street, you know, just people venting it with, you know, because people haven't been able to process everything that is going on. Right. So like the idea of just being nice seems like a lot. It seems like an extra daunting test. So my question then to you is

Dimple (05:32):

Yes. Bring it.

Jeff (05:34):

Were you kind to the most important person, which is you?

Dimple (05:40):

<laugh>, that's actually a really great question. So I have to say this past year, like I've really been working on self-compassion a lot more, well, nice, uh, for this exact reason, cuz it's important. But having said that, I had this thing happen this weekend. It's not really that big of a deal, but it really stuck with me. And I just beat myself up about it for like a couple of hours. Like it really, um, was bothering me and I kept like trying to come back to be like, you know what, it's not that big a deal. Let's just let go of it. Let's move forward. It was a mistake it's you know, it's okay. But yeah, that self kindness is not, it's not that easy. Like it's, it's so much easier to get in our heads and remind ourselves like why we suck rather than, you know, like when we do make a mistake or whatever, to, to turn that kindness on ourselves and you know, this is something that I teach other people all the time and yet it's really hard to do for ourselves. So yeah.

Jeff (06:39):

I have a theory that the reason why so many of us can be mean to others is because we've been beating ourselves up for so long.

Dimple (06:49):

Oh yeah.

Jeff  (06:50):

And then hurt people hurt people. Right. So

Dimple (06:52):

It's so true, so true. Which is like a great segue actually. Nice, nice. This is episode four– For the Children, uh, written by Jason Sudeikis, Bill Lawrence and Brendan Hunt and directed by Tom Marshall. And basically this one is about the gala that Rebecca, uh, used to do with Rupert, but now is doing on her own this year. So yeah, that's great. You said that you really liked this episode. What, uh, what stood out for you?

Jeff (07:23):

So I feel the theme of this episode. I didn't know the title. I feel the theme of this episode was friends, right? Like friends, you know, watching out for friends, like there's clear like ways in which some people showed up for each other and ways how some people didn't. Right. Yeah. So like, you know, right at the beginning, like, you know, Nate doesn't have a suit, Ted gets him a suit, you know, and Rebecca's in the photo shoot feeling all awkward Keely looks out for her. Even those guys that were beating up Nate were like, Hey, okay. We're not gonna be, you know, so there's that. But then you have these other things where like Keeley breaks up with Jamie, right. You clearly see a lack of attunement between Rebecca and Rupert and then Ted and you know, Rupert. Yeah. So, you know, and then Keeley and uh, uh, what is it, Rebecca at the end? Like, so there's so many themes of like people really finally being real with one another. Right? Yeah. And then either getting connected or closer or moving on or letting go.

Dimple (08:33):

Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I agree. And I think for me, like, uh, to put a word to what you're describing for me, like the theme really felt like vulnerability. I really felt like there were a lot of instances where we're starting to see, like, people being vulnerable with each other. Are you still there? <laugh> sorry. OK. You know, like right up front as well, Ted is, is leaving for the gala and he's walking down the alley, he's um, leaving a voicemail for his wife. And as he is like signing off, he starts to say, I love you, but you see him like catch himself. Right. And then he, he changes it to miss you. Right. So there's a little bit of, to me, there was a little bit of vulnerability there. Like, oh, I can't, you know, should I say it? Should I not? Like, I'm not sure how I'm feeling about this, how she's gonna feel about this.

Dimple (09:21):

Then the, the part that you mentioned about Rebecca on the red carpet and she looks at, uh, Keeley, and it's just like, I hate this part, you know? And you can see like her whole, like Hannah Waddingham is amazing, like her, uh, facial expressions and her body language. And, and I love when Keeley then, like yells, you know, and like gives her the advice and stuff, but then yells from behind the reporters just about how good she looks and stuff. And you see like the shift right. Where she like starts to stand up a little taller and she starts laughing and she's just so much more natural. She does a little twirl, you know, so like so much happier. But the scene that really got me on the vulnerability piece was Ted and Rebecca outside. So she's had that confrontation with Rupert and they're standing outside and, uh, she talks about how Rupert really knows her. And just to think that like his blunt honesty was noble instead of yeah. Um, she says the cruelest way of hiding his own insecurities. And I think that that's really interesting because she's doing the exact same thing. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and I don't think she necessarily realizes it, but what came up for me in that moment was there was an art installation with like two people, um, sitting back to back against each other, kind of with their arms folded. And it's like all hollow. Oh. And

Jeff (10:43):

Their inner child was hugging. Yeah. Their inner, yeah.

Dimple (10:46):

Each other. And on the inside, the two inner children are like reaching for each other. Right. And that's like, what came to mind for me as she said that. And, and as you start to think about like how hurt she is too. Right. And like how we present one way and we have so much anger and fear and frustration and all these other things, but on the inside, like there's such a vulnerability in there. There's such a like, you know, childlike, I just wanna be loved. I just wanna be seen. And Ted sees her, you know, and he, he just reaches out and hugs her and you see in that moment, like she stands there for a second. And then she finally puts her arm around him too. And right. And I feel like you start to see like that wall, just like starting to come down just a little bit. And I just thought was so powerful, you know? Right.

Jeff (11:37):

And if you think about it, the episode she was, so cruel. What's his, her assistant's name?

Speaker 3 (11:44):

Higgins

Jeff (11:45):

Higgins. She was like, well, Higgins is like, I'm at the boring table. And she's like, she's already ignored it. And then she goes, oh, that person got kicked in the face by a horse. She's like, I hope the horse is fine. You know? Like she's just so mean, but you're like, where is that mean coming from and going back to what you said earlier. Yeah. I found that really powerful when she goes the cruelest way of hiding his own insecurities. And then she goes, he used to tell me, wear this, eat that. And then he goes, you know, and then she told me I would be alone. You know, if he left me and now I'm alone, just as he said, I would be. And I was like, oh, like all of your insecurities represented by not only your inner critic or yourself, but represented by like this other person, this other person that is quote unquote loved by the public while you come off as stiff and cold. And you were like, well, I wish people could understand me, but people can't. So that hug was huge for her because it was just like, nobody understands her. Right. Yeah.

Jeff (12:53):

So I thought even more powerful than the hug was at the end when Ted Lasso turns in, he goes, I know who that dude is just like you do. And she's like

Dimple (13:02):

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff (13:06):

So like wooo

Dimple (13:06):

You see that look on her face,

Jeff (13:08):

Gas lighting, that gas lighting.

Dimple (13:10):

Yes. yes The line that you just talked about in terms of he used to tell her what to eat and what to wear and things like that. You know, I always find that so interesting. I used to do a bunch of pro bono work when I was an attorney, uh, with survivors of domestic violence. And so we would do a lot of the court stuff, um, taking them in for protective orders and things like that. And it was always amazing to me how you can see someone who, you know, is, is strong and if they could see themselves that way. But, and I used to think like, well, how can people fall into this, um, space? You know, where, if you're confident in this, like how can you let someone else do that to you? And then I experienced it and it was like, it was terrible, you know?

DImple (13:55):

And I didn't even notice like where this shift happened and I've always like, come like people talk, say to me all the time, like, oh, you're so confident. You're so accomplished. You're so this you're so that, and I remember when I was in that relationship, like, I felt like crap on the inside, you know, like I put on this facade, but, and so when you see Rebecca and you see like she's so strong and she comes across as so tough, but like inside, she's just like, so like no confidence, no. You know, um, because she's had this person who has treated her this way, you know, and I think it's just such an interesting, again, like that, that idea that we're all just craving this love and validation, you know, even though we need to have that for ourselves first in order to really be able to accept that, but still, um, and so yeah, I love that part at the end, too, where he is like, yeah, you're not the only one who sees it, you know? And so,

Jeff (14:49):

Yeah, I think as someone, I, I dated once that was so accomplished, but before we even went on any dates, she would date the most toxic, horrible dudes. <laugh> I'd be like, why date all these guys? And it would like, yeah, it was just such a cognitive dissonance between all the success she had publicly and then how she got treated, you know, privately. And I was like, dang, this is rough.

Dimple (15:23):

Yeah, yeah, no, it really is. It really is. So that was another kind of, uh, interesting thing was this discussion around like power dynamics. Right. And how people use their power. Right. So Ted knows he has some power. Right. And, and he's in a position of leadership and we see this in leadership in general, right. Leadership is a position of power by its very nature. And so you've got some leaders who use that for good. So this idea of being a united front, so he's using his power to make sure that like, you know, he's bringing the team together. Uh mm-hmm <affirmative> so like that whole thing, uh, about parent trapping Roy and Jamie, I thought that was so funny. And, uh, and it, you know, it didn't occur to me until after, when they like widened the shot that there's actually other people at that table. I was like, how awkward would that be if you were right. Trying

Jeff (16:15):

To get autograph from like Jamie or Roy. And you're like, when should I chime in,

Dimple (16:23):

I thought that was so funny. Uh, but yeah. You know, like, uh, so, so kind of like trying to figure out how to bring people together. Oh, there was something else on the power one, uh, it'll come back to me, but then you got, on the other hand, you've got people like Rupert who are powerful, right. Because he's wealthy and white and, um, a number of other things. And the way that he uses his power is like the complete opposite right. Of Ted. Oh, that was the other thing was, um, so when Rupert is like, oh, it's been a tough year for her, but, and like Ted, Ted has her back the whole time. And then he goes one step further. Cuz he realizes that if she doesn't have a musical guest, it's gonna look bad on her. And so he then, you know, grabs Higgins, he knows Higgins hasn't done it <laugh> so like in a way he's also had Higgins covered too because oh God

Jeff (17:14):

Higgins

Dimple (17:15):

Is not gonna yeah. You know? And so he's able to kind of navigate that and use his power in that way. And I just thought that that was really, uh, really pretty cool.

Jeff (17:24):

The Rupert guy reminds me of the better.com guy. Like, you know, there's like he's using, he's just using his power to make himself look good at the expense of others. And also when, if you think about it, if you try to, you know, I know it's hard to do this, but it's trying to dig into his, his insecurities.

Dimple (17:45):

Yeah.

Jeff (17:46):

Why did it even show up to that gala? Because he feels irrelevant. Why does he, you know, get that girl at the end and go home with her because he's alone as well. You know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, he's lonely as well. Why does he insult her? Because he feels like a piece of crap and he's like, well, I feel like a piece of crap, but I don't feel as bad as her. And then he feels necessary to both get on Ted Lasso's good side, and also insult him at the same time. Basically treating him as he would treat Rebecca, you know? Like, do

Dimple (18:22):

Do you really think he was trying to get on his good side though?

Jeff(18:25):

Uh, no, I think, I mean, meaning like publicly.

Dimple (18:29):

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Jeff(18:30):

Stuff like that. And then quiet, like he does with Rebecca, right? The same kinda gas lighting of just like, but I'm not happy about these last losses. And then he even drops that seed of like, oh dude, something around like, do you think Ted is good for the team? He's like, I know you're deliberately destroying the team and now I'm gonna try to create this rift between you two. She doesn't deny it. She goes, it’s exactly what we need. Oh, there are so many fascinating power dynamics with that dude. <laugh>

Dimple (19:02):

Yeah. There really were. What, what was interesting about that scene in particular though, where, like you said, he's, he's laughing the whole time, but then he says, oh, you know, and I wasn't too happy with those losses. Uh, and you see Rebecca <laugh> Rebecca is like trying to suppress a smile. Like you can see that she's like, Aw, this is hurting him. This is what I wanted, you know? Yeah. And she's so engrossed in that, that even when he makes the comment about like, oh, you know, when Ted says, oh, you know, we, we we're gonna turn it around or whatever. Um, and he says, well, I believe you. And then there's like that silence. And then Ted's like, you know, it's gonna get real awkward if you don't, if you don't speak up or something like that. And then she's like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because she's just so like in it, like looking at him and, and trying to see like what his reaction is, because this is what she's been working towards. Right. And she's getting that real time, uh, response and you know, and it probably feels good in the moment. Uh, like we've all been there, right? Yeah. Like in the moment it's like, yeah, you know what? I got you and yeah. Uh, you hurt me and now I get to hurt you back. And

 

Jeff (20:09):

Now I get to hurt you back. It's kind of crazy. Is like, that could becomes all encompassing. Yeah. You know, like it can take you over. And I, I'm trying to think of like, like, imagine the times when that has happened to all of us. Right. Where you just, you're just so angry that you just start lashing out with like, no, it's just irrational, you know? Yeah. And you know, it might not even be good for you, but you still do it anyway because you think in the moment it feels, you feel righteous. You don't feel good. You feel righteous. Yes. You feel justified. You feel there that this is the time for justice. <laugh>

Dimple (20:49):

Yeah.

Jeff (20:49):

Yeah. I found that sometimes when I'm like commenting on people, men commenting on my TikToks, you know, and I'm like, oh, I'm getting justice as if they're gonna read my comment, be like, you know what? I agree with you. Like, that's just not gonna happen. But at the time I'm like, I'm right. And you're wrong. And I'm gonna tell you, and I never get the satisfaction of anyone ever saying you're right.

Dimple (21:12):

Exactly.

Jeff (21:14):

<laugh>

Dimple  (21:16):

You're right.

Jeff (21:18):

That never,

Dimple (21:20):

It's so funny that you say that though. My sister and I just had this conversation last week because I decided to walk away from a project I was working on. Uh, cause I just didn't agree with the direction they were taking and I was getting really frustrated. And so the person that I had been working with sent this email and you know, it was very like vanilla and very like, you know, thank you for taking the time to work with us, how your contributions were valued, like which they weren't. But whatever. And I mean, it was just like, the more I read it, like the angrier I got. Right. And so I like drafted this whole response and then I sent it to my sister and she calls me and she's like, do you wanna be right? Or do you wanna be happy? <laugh> I was like, I was like, I wanna be right. You know? And she was like, all right, well, do you think it's gonna make a difference? And I was like, no, you know? And, and so it's those moments of like, yeah, in that moment, like, you want nothing more than to be right. But is it really gonna serve you?

Jeff (22:21):

Wait, let's dig deep. Why do we wanna be right? What do we think we're gonna get?

Dimple  (22:26):

What do we think we're gonna, I mean, that's where the ego comes in. Right? Like it's an ego issue a lot of times with wanting to be right. Like it feels good. Well there's okay. So there's that piece. But then there's also like, if we can prove we're right. Goes back to that perfectionism tendencies, right? Like we, we show ourselves to be perfectionists and know-it-alls and all this stuff. Because we wanna present ourselves to the world in that way. If we say, Hey, I don't know. Or Hey, I messed up or Hey, I didn't do a great job. It's like, we are, that's that vulnerability piece of that we don't wanna share. You know, we want, we don't wanna share that. We're not perfect and that we don't know everything.

Jeff (23:06):

Yes. I agree with that. I feel also that there's a part of being, right. Because you want to feel seen, you want others to understand you, you don't wanna under, like, I don't wanna understand others. Not at that time. Like I'm in the right. And I can't believe you feel that way. It's definitely that at least for me <laugh>

Dimple (23:27):

Yeah.

Jeff (23:28):

Can you believe, I mean, even how we tell this story, we tell it. Yeah. Like the heroes in the story, can you believe this person said this to me? I know, right? Yeah. We tell the story in such a, you know, they're the worst human being on earth and we are magical.

DImple  (23:54):

That's true. Part of the, the class that I teach is about, like, we talk about that storytelling element. Right. And so I always give this example of, you know, imagine you see you're walking down the street and you see a friend walking in the opposite direction. You raise your hand to say hello. They look down and they keep walking. And then I ask like the group of, you know, tell me what happened. And like everyone, you know, oh, the person was mad at me. They didn't see me. They, you know, something happened and you know, they were in a rush. Like you, we create all these like reasons for why somebody does something. But if you really look at it objectively, the only thing that happened is that you raised your hand to say hello and they didn't. Right. Yeah. But it's all the other stuff that we like we put in there because you know, we are looking at life through a lens that we have created or that's been created through like all of our life experiences.

Dimple (24:48):

Right. So it, it influences everything. And that is what like often results in the stress that we experience. And the frustrations that we have and stuff is, is to your point it's like, we create these stories. Right. <laugh> and I do love, like, we surround ourselves with like people who are going to confirm exactly what we need to hear. Like, and that was like, another thing that came up for me though, is this idea of like, having that, those courageous conversations, like being willing to say the thing. So like with the suit, right? Like that could have gone very badly <laugh> or most people wouldn't have said anything at all. Right. But, but to your point, like Ted had Nate's back. Like he didn't want him to look foolish. And so he did it in a loving and kind way to be like, yeah, you know that suit's not really working for you.

Jeff (25:33):

Oh, there was another point I had forgotten, but it reminds me of that whole, uh, difficult conversations. You know, I, I do, I run a lot of workshops. I run difficult conversations and it was fascinating watching Roy and Jamie have that difficult conversation. Yeah. And also how it went down because Ted brought them together and then was just like, Hey, y'all need to work it out. But he also didn't do too much, you know, and just let them, and actually, it was probably the most realistic, difficult conversation I feel I've seen on like media, because typically it's just like, you know, it's like Family Matters where they have a nice conversation. They're like, Hey, we're friends again. And it's like, no, the guy still hates his guts. But like

DImple (26:25):

I love that your reference is Family Matters.

Jeff (26:28):

Yeah. You know Family Matters, you know? Right. TGIF, thank goodness it's friday. But yeah, because, because in it, think about it, going back to where we were talking about the, the hero story, finally, when they both go to the bar, Roy is like, shut up. I'm speaking first. But then Roy tells the story where he's not the hero, that's a huge thing. And then Jamie then finally tells a story about how, you know, he had Roy's poster up and you know, and then they're both really honest with each other, which is really hard to do. Right. But honest from a standpoint of like, I'm not gonna hold anything back, but I'm also not, I don't know if I'm so much attacking you. It's just pointing out my perspective. Because when Jamie does say to Roy, it's like, look, you act as if everyone should just worship the ground you walk on for all the trophies you won. But like, you're not the same player it's like, dang. And it's just like, Roy's like, you're so arrogant and selfish out there that I've refused to pass through the ball there. The tone is different because the tone is like,

Dimple (27:35):

It's not charged.

Jeff (27:36):

Yeah. It's like, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm not attacking you like Rupert. I'm really actually just saying something that you should probably know and you probably already know yourself.

Dimple (27:47):

Yeah. And

Jeff (27:47):

That's the part that I think is really difficult with the whole, you know, friends thing is like, when can a friend say the truth to you?

Dimple (27:55):

Yeah.

Jeff (27:56):

And when can that friend just be like, you're right. I can't believe the, the world is horrible, but you're amazing.

Dimple (28:04):

Yeah. And it takes like, again, going back to vulnerability, like it takes being able to trust the person that you are in that space with to know that if they're telling you something like this, it's out of love and it's not out of, you know, like wanting to attack you or whatever. And this piece with Roy, Jamie, like, you know, Ted starts that conversation off, uh, at the table with like, you don't have to be best friends to be teammates. And that really, like, I had to sit with that for a bit, cuz I was like, yeah. That's, I mean, that's really true. Like we, you know, if you think about team dynamics in like a company mm-hmm <affirmative>, you don't have to be best friends with all your colleagues, but there's this idea of the mutual respect and finding common ground. And I always talk about this as like, um, you know, creating human centered workplaces, right? Like if we can see each other as human beings and respect each other on that level, you know, like we can be respectful to each other and we can have those conversations and know that we're not just trying to tear each other down. We have the same like common goal at the end of the day.

Jeff (29:07):

And you can even potentially hate that person, but still be honest with them. You know, you, you know, some organizations or some teams I've, I've worked with where like that dynamic exists, but at least people know where you stand.

Dimple (29:22):

Yeah.

Jeff (29:23):

I think the part that is really hard most of the time. And I I've said this a lot of times, what, you know, what was the acronym for? Nice, nothing interesting can emerge, like when you have two very nice meetings no one knows where each other stands and knows really what everyone is like, honestly thinking. So the team can't operate cause everyone is lying to one another, you know,

Dimple (29:50):

That's such a good point. Like that's such an important point because if we were able to exist in like communities and workplaces where like honesty was a core value, right. Honesty and the understanding again that we have like shared common objectives, then there wouldn't be this sense of like, I don't know if what this person's telling me is really true because you're right. Like in the workplace we spend a lot of time on that. You don't know if the people that you're working with, like if they really like your idea or if they are just saying that, or it's really tough to operate in that way, day in, day out. It's it's another reason why I think people are exhausted because you know, the work itself is hard, but when you're playing these like mental like games, trying to figure everyone around you out, it takes a, it wears on you, you know, big part of burning out kinda.

Jeff (30:41):

I ran a workshop a while back called Dealing With A-Holes At Work <laugh> but there was one term that was worse than like the, a-hole that was right up in your face. It was the a-hole where you didn't know where they stood.

Dimple (30:59):

Yeah.

Jeff (31:00):

Sometimes they could be your friend and sometimes they stab you in the back. Sometimes they speak up for you and other times they're silent when you need them to be. And it was just like, it's, that's more exhausting because you just don't trust the environment. Yeah. You're just kinda freaked out all the time of like what might happen. And you're like, Ugh,

Dimple (31:24):

It's interesting because it reminds me of like that idea of political correctness. Like, you know, we existed in this society of political correctness for so long, which on the surface, like felt better because at least people seemed to be respectful of each other. But I have to say that, you know, after everything with George Floyd, after he was murdered and then like the resurgence of Black Lives Matter and, uh, and just these calls for more social, social and racial justice, it's been really interesting to see people stepping into like what they actually believe. And it was a real eye opener for me personally, because I was really surprised at people who I thought, you know, we, we shared the same thoughts and values and everything and, and we don't, and it really made me question like, wow, like all these years either work together or whatever I've known you, like, what did you think about me that whole time, if you were keeping all this to yourself. Yeah. And so

Jeff (32:24):

The term is referred to as the ambivalent, the ambivalent a-hole, they suffer from the frenemy disorder. So during George Floyd, for what I remember is a lot of people being like, oh, it's so wrong. Oh, we should do something about this. And then like within a month they were like, are we still doing this? <laugh> yeah. And it's like, man, I've been doing this all my whole life. And you got tired after a month. Like, you're like, I know we were doing it during the summer. We had more time, but now we're getting back to school. So can we just like wrap this up? And it was like, wow.

Dimple  (32:57):

Yeah, it doesn't feel great. <laugh> sorry. One funny thing. If I can, uh, shift the mood back for a second, uh, about that scene with, uh, with Jamie and Roy at the bar was, um, I've just been reading a lot of like interviews and things like that. And it's funny because apparently Brett Goldstein and Phil Dunster are actually really good friends and they're always just cracking each other up. And so that scene at the end where they are toasting and he says well to your, to your death, right. Yes. And, and you see Roy start laughing. Um, like I I'm really curious if, if that was really like Roy laughing or if it was actually Brett Goldstein laughing. Oh. Uh, because he said that of all the, like people he works with, like the scenes with Phil Dunster are the hardest for him to get through. And he ends up breaking character every time because they just crack each other up so much. And so, so yeah. Sometimes I watch the show and I'm like trying to figure out I'm like, is that the actor? Or is that the character, you know?

Jeff (34:00):

Well, I definitely thought it was Roy because at the end he was just like, you're such a prick, which is true. It's just like, he really is wishing for his death, you know? But

Jeff (34:12):

I think there's another part that we forget, you know, or we ignore or, or, you know, I don't know why I ignored this part, but the whole Keely thing finally, her first, I mean, think about the evolution, right? Like she goes from getting Rebecca's back to then getting Jamie's back by bidding on him all and then being, you know, and then seeing that like Rebecca's struggling. And then Rebecca's like, Hey, you know, thanks for looking out for me. Hey, do you want to drink? And then while she's sipping the drink she tells, or, or I maybe was vice versa, but she tells Keely about how the plus one is. And it was like, oh, it was now Rebecca, someone that was so cold at the beginning is now looking out for Keely, you know? Yeah. I think that's like one of the first nice gestures she did without trying to get something back for it. Yeah.

DImple (35:06):

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff (35:07):

And then it really is her choice at that point, because she's like, I was dating 23 year olds when I was 18. Yeah. Soccer players, and now I'm dating them and I'm almost 30. And she's like, do I want, it's that whole Elizabeth Gilbert quote of like, you know, personal transformation doesn't happen until you get tired of your bullshit. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and she's like, am I tired of dating the same person? And then that whole idea of like accountability matters and when Roy's just like, thanks. Yeah, that was right. But thanks. That was fascinating. Cause you could tell like the, she was like, oh, there's something better than Jamie out there. <laugh> I thought that evolution was fascinating. And then at the end, when she grabbed the bottles and then hung out with Rebecca and then

DImple (35:56):

Recognized, that was awesome. Yeah. And this, this theme of accountability, I think it was a big one throughout the story too. And so even that conversation, again, going back to, uh, Jamie and Roy it's like you see Roy continuing to step into leadership. Right. So he makes the first move to like go and talk to Jamie. And he starts by, by becoming vulnerable with Jamie to say like, look, this is something that happened, you know, uh, when I was coming up through, through the ranks and uh, and then the accountability it's like Roy and Jamie are two ends of the spectrum in that moment. Right. So you've got like Roy who's really grown into his maturity to a degree <laugh> and, and is now stepping into leadership and recognizing like that requires sometimes having to make the first move. And then you've got Jamie who's on the opposite end.

Dimple (36:45):

Who's just like, like, you know, like Roy had to coax him to, to take responsibility and accountability for his, you know, the stuff that he does. And so there was that, and then, uh, Keely taking accountability for using Roy during the, um, the auction. What I thought, what was interesting is Jamie says, sorry to her at the end there. And that seems to be his go-to. Right. Like he, he does that all the time. Like, he'll do all these terrible things and he's like, okay, sorry. Like, and you see that like, uh, he did that with Ted several times, right. In the first couple of episodes where Ted would call him out on stuff and he'd kind of joke about it and then he'd realize, oh, he's not, he's not screwing around. So then he'd be like, all right, sorry, coach. You know, but the difference this time was when Keeley said, uh, do you even know what you're sorry for?

Dimple (37:33):

And he, he said, he goes, you, you always ask me that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then Roy shows up and so we don't really get into it, but like this idea of taking, you know, being accountable for your actions and your words and, and everything that you're doing, I just wrote, uh, this post this morning. Cause today would've been my dad's, uh, 74th birthday. And I was thinking about like, he always like used to tell my sister and I like that there was nothing we couldn't do. Like he never had all those old Indian perspectives that girls could only do certain things or whatever. He wanted us to do everything. But the one thing that he really felt was important was like integrity and accountability. Like really, you know, we could do whatever we wanted, but we had to do so with integrity, we had to be accountable to ourselves and to the people around us so that if we, you know, and take responsibility, if we weren't doing something right. And I just think that that's like, it's so hard, you know? Yeah. Cause again, that ego gets in the way and like,

Jeff (38:38):

And it's interesting because I think of like, probably Jamie always because he's attractive and he's a talented soccer player and all these things, the sorry was always enough. Like, oh my gosh, the fact that this guy's even saying, sorry to me is like a really big deal. Right. Even though like he doesn't really care and you actually kinda see this with leaders all the time where they're like, oh, whoops, I'm sorry, I just insulted you. I'm sorry. I just laid off 900 people. I, I, I, the buck stops with me, but they don't really even know what they're apologizing for or that their actions won't change because they feel as if, well, if I, I use the apology, will that be enough? Like, because I don't really actually wanna change my actions. <laugh>

Dimple (39:27):

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. And, and this idea of, uh, and a lot of times those apologies are also their apologies, like masked in, uh, in insult kind of, you know, like, I'm sorry you feel that way or I'm sorry, blah, blah. You know, it's like, that's not really an apology.

Jeff (39:47):

Right. Very performative and, and rude sometimes. Yeah.

Dimple (39:52):

So, uh, yeah, no, I agree. I think that's, that's a, a really interesting, uh, piece of it. There was one other interesting thing that I read about, uh, not too long ago. So going back to kind of like the, the power piece. So, you know, at the end where everybody gets up and starts dancing, there's an, uh, an interview that was done with Mohamed who plays Nate. And he talks about how, like he and Jason Sudeikis have had this long conversation thinking about whether Nate would actually get up and go dance as well. And then they intentionally decided that no, he wouldn't. And so the assumption is like, he's still shy. He still doesn't feel like he quite fits in. But the way that, uh, that Mohamed explains is that he says that they made the decision that the why Nate's not up is he actually, and taking in the power play between Rupert, Rebecca and Ted.

Dimple (40:45):

Oh. And he's just taking it all in and like making mental notes for when his own time comes. Yeah. Which I thought was really like, oh, you know, and, and we wouldn't know that necessarily like looking at it like the first or second time, like, I think definitely as a season progresses, if you like get through the end of the second season and then you go back and watch, you can start to see those little things. But, uh, yeah. I just thought that that was so fascinating, you know, that it was such an, oh, I would've,

Jeff (41:12):

Yeah. I would've never picked that up. But then a theme arises that I didn't think about, right. The theme that he was an understudy for west side story or something like that, <laugh> like, you're like what, you know, and then, you know, and then Ted is just like another layer peeled away.

Dimple (41:31):

Oh, let me,

Jeff (41:32):

I thought that was really powerful. But then that actually takes in consideration as well. The underestimation of Cam outta nowhere, this street performer, just like all of this busker, all of a sudden comes through for them. And it's just like, I love that. I don't know. I love that that part was, was

Dimple (41:55):

And Ted’s like, and he is like, you're, you're not gonna wanna judge this book by its cover

Jeff(42:00):

<laugh>. Right.

Dimple (42:01):

Right. So, uh, cam Cam Cole  is an actual musician and it's interesting. So he's in one of these Facebook groups as well. And he is like talked a couple of times about how, uh, through Ted lasso, like he's seen his own, uh, like followers and stuff go up, which I think is great. Like, I love that he's getting an audience as a result of this, but, uh, yeah, he's a super talented musician, which also the music. I know I've talked about this before, but the music in this show, just like, uh, so the last song at the end, when, uh, Ted, I mean, uh, Rebecca and Keeley are speeding through town drinking champagne in the rickshaw is actually a song by Robbie Williams who was supposed to be the musical guest for the thing. Um, and the title of the song is For The Kids <laugh>. And so, which I thought was like a really nice way to bring it all back together. And then Coach Beard, like, can we just talk about Coach Beard for a second?

Jeff (42:54):

What was that? Don't put the game before the dame, he put the game before the dame. What lesson can we learn from that?

Dimple (43:07):

<laugh> yeah. Like what what's what's your lesson for that?

Jeff (43:11):

Well, my lesson is, he was, I don't think he was comfortable outside of the game. Like that was where he thrived with this. I don't know, relationship. And then when she was like, can we do something else? Like dance, which is not something, it seemed like he, that dude could do <laugh>. He was just like, I can't, I can't break out of this. Like, this is, this is my comfort zone. And I choose not to be, you know, to get outta my comfort zone. She's like, okay, well then I'm out, you know? Yeah.

Dimple (43:44):

Like, yeah. 

Jeff (43:47):

It’s weird. Cause then he goes dances in the end. So you're like, dude, you shoulda just gone out there,

Dimple (43:54):

The headbanging just cracks me up. But he is so like, he's such an incredible actor. And Jane, uh, the woman who plays Jane is actually played by Phoebe Walsh. Who's one of the writers on the show. Oh, and yeah. And they're yeah, they are. I mean, it's, it's an interesting relationship, but the other thing that cracked me up, like there's so much like Coach Beard doesn't say a lot, but his facial expressions, and then when he does talk, like when they have the fight at the beginning and Ted Lasso says, like, what's my number one rule about fight club. And he's like, go, he's like super high pitched. It just cracked me up. Like I kept rewinding it and watching it. Cause it just makes me laugh so hard. I absolutely love Coach Beard. He's just so understated. And yet there's so much going on in that head and the fact that he's just constantly reading stuff like it's,

Jeff (44:43):

And also the whole don't put the game before the dame also represents this. I, because the game is about thinking about the future, you know, or the past, but not being in the present. And it's just like, she's here right now. She wants to spend time with you right now. And he's like B34 checkmate. Like he cares so much about winning and she's like, I don't even care about this game anymore. Like I'm done with this game. Like it's not fun for me. And he's just like, let's win. He's just like, why are you gonna win, dude? We don't even like, that's not even gonna that win is not gonna even bring you happiness. Right.

Dimple (45:22):

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so I love that you just used a bingo reference for the chess <laugh>

Jeff (45:29):

Oh, the what? Bingo reference.

Dimple (45:31):

Cause you said B34.

Jeff (45:33):

Oh, B34. Oh

Dimple (45:34):

<laugh> but uh, but I do <laugh> I,

Jeff (45:39):

Yeah. Cause I dunno chess. I really know if that's a, that's a move.

Dimple (45:42):

No, I think that's awesome. But yeah, no. And, and I think to what you were saying earlier, like I think, uh, and we're gonna, I think, definitely get to explore this further is where those comfort zones lie and you know, especially in relationships, like it's scary to put yourself out there and you know, when we find those comfort zones, it's really hard to step out of them. I know. We'll definitely get to explore that a little bit more, but uh, definitely an area of insecurity, uh, with him. So interesting

Jeff (46:10):

I will say this, cause this was a powerful line that I did not want to be missed, but uh, don't let the wisdom of age be wasted on you. He said that, I had never heard that before. I, I like, you know what a youth is wasted on the, on the youth or whatever. Yeah. Don't let the wisdom of age be wasted on you. I thought that was fascinating.

Dimple (46:34):

Yeah. Well he says he made it up in the moment and then he was feeling pretty good about himself. Right. He says that to right, right. Uh, but yeah, it is a good one. It is a really profound line. Right? Like we can use those lessons we've learned along the way to really guide us

Jeff (46:50):

Instead of, and, and we so, so much of the time value, like, oh, I wish I was younger. I wish it was this. I wish I, you know, but it's like, you have all this wisdom now you have all these lessons learned that a lot of people don't have and we, uh, discount those when those are like, those are probably more valuable than, you know, having youth and all this other stuff, because you know, you don't even know what you have. We actually understand what we have. So

Dimple (47:20):

Yeah. Uh, another great episode to watch. Um, so thoughts on, on what you'd like to focus on?

Jeff(47:29):

Well, I wanna remember it this time. Yeah. So I'm even gonna text that to myself. That Ted Lasso, I haven't thought of mine yet. You, you go first then I'll think of,

Dimple (47:37):

I think the accountability piece sounds interesting to explore, you know, I, I'm not sure, like, I'll be curious to see where it comes up over the next few days, but I think that could be, that could be one to lean into cuz it's, it's something that I definitely aspire to. I think it's not always as easy to live up to.

Jeff (48:00):

I kinda resonate with that one. That one speaks to me too, because there's a lot of things where I'm like heading back to Chicago on Tuesday. There's a lot of things I have not done <laugh>, you know, and I'm like, man, I gotta own up to some of these things. So yes. Trying to be accountable to myself and my own actions without also beating myself up in the process because that doesn't help. Yeah. That will be my exploration, accountability with compassion.

Dimple (48:31):

Ooh, I like that. Okay. That's the done deal. I think for both of us accountability with compassion. Okay. Any final thoughts before we sign off?

Jeff  (48:40):

I have to think more about that line of wisdom and what wisdom am I not taking advantage of? Hmm.

Dimple (48:47):

Well thank you so much as always. And I appreciate you.

Jeff (48:51):

Appreciate you too. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk to you later.

DImple (48:56):

See you next time.

Speaker 3 (49:04):

Thanks so much for listening of What Would Ted Lasso Do. If you got any nuggets of Ted Lasso wisdom from this episode, try them out in your life and let us know what happens @WWTLDpodcast  on Twitter, Instagram, or at our website, WWTLD podcast.com where you'll also find a full transcript of the show. We love hearing what other Ted heads took away from the episode or details or perspectives that we might have missed.

Speaker 4 (49:26):

And if you do like the show, please subscribe and head on over to Apple Podcast and leave us a five star rating. It all helps. We don't know exactly why, but it does. So in the spirit of believing in hope, believing in belief. Please help us out

Speaker 3 (49:44):

And thank you to Podify and Sam Davidson for producing our show, to Kajal Dhabalia  for our visuals and graphics and Kenzie Slottow for our theme song. And most of all, thank you to all of you for listening.

Speaker 4 (49:54):

Ted Lasso could simply just be another show to binge watch. Or if we challenge ourselves to consistently ask the question, what would Ted lasso do? It could change the trajectory of your life. It has for us

Speaker 3 (50:11):

To join us again. Next time as we explore another episode and ask ourselves, What Would Ted Lasso Do?