Season 3 returns on Monday, May 1st!
July 5, 2022

Two Aces

Two Aces
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Do we grow more from one big step – or a hundred little ones? 


This week we explore episode 6 - Two Aces -  and discuss how Ted’s vulnerability makes him a more empathetic and effective leader – and the lessons we can learn from the way he grows from his grief.


We also examine this episode’s themes of agency vs autonomy and living into values, sports superstitions, double standards in gender, and what happens when we don’t allow ourselves to progress after pain. 


Jeff also calls BS on team-building events, and Dimple explains the idea of Schadenfreude, or delighting in others’ misery. 


“[We] see the world in one of three ways: either as a playground, a place that you can play and explore and everyone is safe to play with; a proving ground where you’re constantly in competition with other people and you feel like you constantly have to prove yourself; or as a battleground where you just see everyone as a threat.” – Jeff


In This Episode


  • How being vulnerable in grief leads to growth (03:52)
  • Schadenfreude and healing after toxicity (08:17)
  • Why you can feel like you’ve lost even after a win (10:21)
  • How Jamie and Danny personify the concept of “the shadow and the sun” (13:03)
  • Gwen Gordon’s theory of play (14:47)
  • Sports superstitions as an example of Ted’s positive leadership (20:03)
  • Letting go in order to move forward (24:58)
  • Psychological safety and how leaders can build trust (25:48)
  • Positive psychology and the virtue of feeling your feelings (35:37) 
  • Leaders who gaslight their people (36:58)
  • Dimple and Jeff’s most important episode takeaways (42:09)


Resources & Links


Mentioned in this Episode




Learn More About Dimple Dhabalia

  • 4 Steps to Creating A Human-Centered Organization


Learn More About Jeff Harry



Dimple    00:00:00    

Just a quick heads up that these are adults having adult conversations about things that take place on a show where the adults use a lot of adult language, all this to say there might be some salty language ahead. So please plan accordingly.  


Ted Lasso Clip

Speaker 1    00:00:12    

Yeah, these aren’t my first boots or anything, my mom gave em to me, she was the one who got me into football in the first place. Her and my dad split up when I was just a, wee sexy little baby. She's the reason I worked so hard. Just wanted to make her proud. She doesn't even care if I'm any good. Just wants me to be happy. Be a good lad. Once I got good though, my old man started showing up didn't he, bragging to all his mates every time I scored a goal, calling me soft if I didn't dominate, you know, and I, and I hated that. I actually fucking hated that. So I made the vow to be so tough that he could never call me soft again. I wonder if sometimes I forget about making her proud. I don't think that she would be lately though.  



DImple    00:01:23    

What would Ted Lasso do? This is a question that we explore in each episode of this podcast, we take the lessons we learn from Ted Lasso and we apply them to the real world through the lens of leadership and positive psychology. My name is Dimple Dhabalia.


Jeff    00:01:38    

And my name is Jeff Harry, and neither of us have ever recorded a podcast. But as Ted Lasso says, taking on a challenge is a lot like riding a horse. If you're comfortable while you're doing it, you're probably doing it wrong.  


Dimple    00:01:51    

We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. And that it helps you find new ways to believe  


Jeff    00:02:07    

Richmond till we die, till Richmond till we die, Richmond till we die. Oh, I love this episode. I enjoyed this.  


Dimple    00:02:18    

I could tell you are super pumped about it. Oh, I love the energy!  


Jeff    00:02:22    

I literally just finished it. I love doing it right before. Cause then I'm like, I'm ready, I’m in it.  


Dimple    00:02:27    

Alright. Well, let's just jump in, uh, off of that. I mean, I feel like that's like a pretty good segue right into the episode.  


Jeff    00:02:35    

Well, let's start at the beginning. I have not seen Ted Lasso that vulnerable at the beginning. I like, I had forgot it. I haven't watched Ted Lasso since we last spoke, so, so it's been like a month or something like that or whatever. So a month maybe shorter. So just seeing him like just struggling, I was like, this is a different side of him. So to see the contrast between him at the beginning and him almost to the end where like it finally was clicking and it was just like, man. Yeah, that was fascinating to me as well as him getting tongue tied.  


Dimple    00:03:11    

Yeah. I, I really picked up on that too. Like I felt like that was one of the biggest themes through the episode. What, for me was kind of this idea of grief and loss and I, it could have been the lens through which I was initially watching though, cuz that was like, I was watching it through the holidays and for me the holidays were kind of tough this year with like being by myself here. And a lot of like my parents, different anniversaries are all like in a row with holidays. So, so it may have been my own lens, but I did feel like that was really kind of a theme because to your point at the beginning, like when he is taking out, he's sitting there looking at his ring and he takes it off. Like you can see, you can feel like he's starting to grieve the end of his marriage. Um, and we see that different side of him where he just seems so out of character, like, you know, he's like flustered and like he got lost on the way to work. And then he keeps asking what Dani Rojas's name is like he can't remember. And then that's like, one of his signatures right. Is remembering people's names, and like, he can't do any of that. He's just like, and so to your point, that vulnerability and like you just see that human side of him that despite like at, uh, front that he puts on all the time in terms of like being positive and being out there and like connecting with people like, you know, inside there's a part of him that's broken and hurt and,


Jeff    00:04:30    

Yeah. But what the part of him that's broken and hurt is where the possibilities are. Right? That's where the growth actually can happen. That's the part that I'm super excited about with each and every one of them with the team, with Rebecca, with each of them, you know, letting go of something at the end, even with Jamie, you know, this is like the most evolution of Jamie you see in one episode. Right? Yeah. So that part I found really powerful. And then this was the first time Ted was like, I'm done. Like Jamie's like, I'm not gonna practice. And then Ted comes out with his speech. And my favorite part of the speech is the fact that he's quoting Allen Iverson.  


I love that he's literally quoting all of Allen Iverson from the Philadelphia 76ers. So if anyone doesn't know, Allen Iverson was like one of the best point guards ever for the Philadelphia 76ers. And he was asked at a press conference about practice. And he's like, we're talking about practice, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice. And then he goes through this whole diatribe and they quote that whole thing, but they flip it, which is so interesting. Cause it's really hard to flip it to motivate someone, but he does it. He does it. He does it really well. 


Dimple    00:05:53    

Well, it's interesting that you said that. So, yeah, that's one of my favorite scenes too. And you know, I really learned about this whole thing with Allen Iverson. The first time I actually watched the episode, I was curious like where that came from and Jason Sudeikis has done a ton of interviews around that. And you know in his, like he said that he had watched, you know, he'd followed Allen Iverson’s career. And what's interesting about that though, is, you know, when Allen Iverson was asked the question, he was actually, um, a friend of his had been killed. So he was like in the midst of, of kind of grieving that and there, you know, and so like all these things around him were falling apart and his point was, you know, that he had so much other stuff going on and they're like asking him about practice, right?   And so coming back to like that theme of grief and loss again, to your point, I do think that they flipped it. Right. But it made me start thinking about like, he's talking about practice with Jamie, but for me, like going a layer deeper, it was this idea that practicing was like, Ted's last straw. Right? Like he was just like, I'm done. But I think part of what pushed him over the edge was he was already going through something else. And so to me, this, this was very much about like, we don't know what people are going through at any given moment. Right. And so what's gonna push people over the edge, and so his whole kind of like coming at Jamie from that space, I think was so much more about him and like what he was going through, similar to what Allen Iverson was going through, where it was just like, are you fucking kidding me? Like there's so much other stuff happening and this is what we're gonna talk about is practice? And I just thought that that was really cool. Like I thought that was really, um, smart, how they did that.  


Jeff    00:07:41    

And then there was a shifting of power at that point. Because up until that point, Jamie had all the power. So now that he's not practicing and he is like, yo set up the cones and then he’s delegating to his minions to set up the cones and they're like, nah, man, like, we're done, like you're not helping the team out anymore. You're not helping us out. So why in the world, am I gonna be going out for you? And that was fascinating because in all of the power that he had as Jamie Tartt, was just done. He had no power anymore.


Dimple    00:08:17    

It really was. And I think that's another piece of the grief and loss. Right. He's losing his status and there's some grief that comes with that too. Right. Like when you lose what you think you are and to your point about the shift, like I, it's so powerful, like that moment where, you know, we've already seen bits of it happening with Roy setting up for Nate and then Isaac making room on the bench for Nate. Now you've got people who are talking back to Jamie saying no, like he asked you to do it. And you're a second teamer. And you just feel that like you feel the rest of the team, like coming together. I think we talked about this last time, right? Like you've got like one toxic piece in your team and the amount of damage they can do and that when you get rid of that piece and you see like everything else start to like get healthy and get connected. Right. And I just thought that that was, it was a really powerful moment for sure. And right after that, like what's interesting is Nate is like all over this, right. He's like joyful that this is happening and that whole, no schadenfreude, you know, this is a no, a no schadenfreude zone. And I thought that that was actually like, it's a really big deal.  


Jeff    00:09:30    

I was wondering what that meant. I didn't understand that part.  


Dimple    00:09:33    

So like schadenfreude is like, where you take joy in other people's misery basically. And I think there's an opposite to that. I can't remember what the terminology is. And so I loved that. Ted was like, no, no, no, this is a no schadenfreude zone, which is also really powerful because like I was thinking about it from that perspective as I was watching this, I, I watched it again this morning as well. And when you have that difficult person on your team, like, it's so easy to take joy when, when they get knocked out. Right. Like you just want to. And the fact that Ted continues to just be like, uh, no, like I, I believe in him, I know there's more there even when he is talking to like, Coach later about like bringing Dani in, you know, he's like, well, you know, Jamie's an ace and we brought him in to help Jamie. Remember he's an ace. And so like his whole thinking process about like, how can I support Jamie? Right. And it's like his through line. And through like the entire season we've seen so far is like, his underlying motives are still to help people on the team become the best versions of themselves. So we saw that when he talked to Trent Crimm about it, um, we see it at the press conference where, you know, they're asking him about the winning, you know, like how did it feel to win? And he's just like, you can go out there and score more than anybody else and still lose. And so I love that that through line stays there. Like we've seen it. It's not just something he says, but he's actually living it.  


Jeff    00:11:01    

Yeah. It took me to an interesting place just now where I think of political discourse now and how each side, regardless of what side you're on, loves to get joy out of the other side’s suffering. And that is not a place where either can come together, you know, and we do that a lot. Oh. So it's interesting then when Dani Rojas shows up, because like Dani Rojas, in my opinion, that's why maybe I love this episode so much. He's so much play, dude. He's like the embodied play. Like, football is life. Like, even that is a really interesting phrase because again, right. It's like, everyone's becoming reborn. Like this is the reborn episode and football is life. And he is just, he's reminding everybody like, Hey, we get to play this and get paid to do what we love. And I'm just so happy that I just get to be here fully present in the moment. Like he's not worried about anything. So even when Jamie Tartt comes over at him later and then like, he wants to play with him, right. At that point, he doesn't see him as like a threat or he's just like, right. You go, now I go, now you go, he's even getting Jamie to play. So when he scores that goal and everyone's like, all like happy for the first time, the team has an experience where everyone basically got to, to touch the ball and then score. And then they all celebrated together. And there wasn't one that toxic person on the pitch. So like, it was like a, a full coming together. And then Jamie for the first time was like, oh, I'm replaceable. I’m replaceable on a crappy second tier team. That hurts. Like, it's OK if I'm replaceable on like Manchester United or Manchester City, but on this team, I'm replaceable. Yikes.  


Dimple    00:13:03    

Yeah. And it, like, it reminded me of that idea of like the shadow and the, the sun or whatever, you know, where you've got two equally good players, like they’re both good, but you've got like one aspect, which is like the shadow, which is Jamie. Right. And I agree that Dani is very playful, but I didn't get that with the, where they're doing the competition with the goal posts. Because for me, like Dani was playing, he was excited to like, be doing this with Jamie. He was in a place of competition. He wasn't in a place at play. Right. And so like he, his perspective and what was interesting is like, so you've got Jamie and he's all about himself. So through that whole thing, like, Dani's like, oh, you know, good job. And he goes, yeah, I know. Right. And then Dani is just like the sun side where he is, you know, willing to share and, and realizes like this isn't, you know, just because somebody else is good, doesn't take something away from me. Right. And so he's there to play, he's there to bond with his teammate. And, uh, yeah. And again, it just, it felt like it was just interesting to see that contrast. And to your point, like, I think that you made a really good point, which is it's the first time that the team gets to know that, hey, we can have someone who's really, really good and still be a part of this because I don't know if you caught it when Dani makes the goal. And then he comes back around, he says to Sam, he says, oh, great cross Sam. Right. And that was the exact thing that Jamie had in the last episode, just like gone off on him about was, you know, the cross. And so I just like, I was like, oh, this is good.  


Jeff    00:14:46    



Dimple    00:14:46    

You know  


Jeff    00:14:47    

The other part I've talked about this before, you know, I quote Gwen Gordon, this play, you know, like thought leader who, I don't know if she came up with a term, but she uses it a lot of like, you know, you see the world in one of three ways, either as a playground, a place that you can play and other it's a place to explore and everyone is safe to play with. Right. A proving ground where you're constantly in competition with other people. And also you feel like you constantly have to prove yourself and as a battleground where you just see everyone as a threat.  


Dimple    00:15:23    

I love that.  


Jeff    00:15:24    

You know, Jamie is definitely, meanders between the proving ground and battleground state. And then Rebecca is even just sheerly in the battleground because even, you know, not rushing to the end of the episode, but even at the end, she's like, I'm alone again. You know, like I'm fighting every I'm even fighting Higgins and people isolate themselves. And they talk a lot about this, you know, with a lot of like a conservatives where there's a reason they are conservative, because they ultimately have come to the decision that they do not trust society. Society has burned them in one way or another. Which is their experience and totally valid. And now they do not trust. So every person for themselves, so that’s the way why they make the decisions that they make. Right. And then we get, or some people can get angry at them.   And it's just like, well, think of Jamie and his father. Right? He was raised a certain way. And he sees people as just using him then of course, then he's gonna use other people. Like he doesn't know any other way. Right. And so Rojas is in the playground and Jamie's in, in that proving ground battleground. And can't even understand where that joy is coming from, from Rojas. He's like, well, of course, of course I can do this. And then he can't do this. Right. And then he loses and like, Rojas is just like, see you tomorrow, like, and Jamie's livid. He's like livid. That, that he didn't get to play today. That he feels ostracized. The one thing that he can be superior at is beating Rojas in this one game. And then he loses that game. That whole process was fascinating.  


Dimple    00:17:10    

Yeah. But he still doesn't seem to learn from it though. Right. Because then he goes and has that conversation with Keely in the parking lot. And he's still talking about like,  


Jeff    00:17:22    

No, but he does, does learn it subconsciously because the fact that he's even reaching out to her to ask,  


Dimple    00:17:32    

That's a good point.  


Jeff    00:17:33    

The fact that like,  


Dimple    00:17:34    

Oh, it's affected him. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely affected him, 


Jeff    00:17:38    

There's some, there's something going on there and it's not positive because he's like, I don't like how I'm feeling, but he doesn't understand these feelings. Right.  


Dimple    00:17:46    

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a good point.  


Jeff    00:17:48    

Just have sex with Keely and then it would get over, you know, it pass and she's like, no, I don't wanna do that anymore. And he's just like, well, what am I supposed to do?  


Dimple    00:17:58    

Yeah. Well, and yeah. And so like, he's still though in that conversation, like I agree, like he's definitely impacted. And Ted is in his head, which is what that whole conversation's about. But even through that, like when he says, oh, we're supposed to go do this stupid show and tell blah, blah, blah. And she's like, well, are you going? And he is like, no. And then she says, well, is everyone else going? And he goes, well, I'm not everyone else. I'm Jamie Tartt. Right. So he's still like trying to hold onto that. Like I'm special. And I love though to your point that he has come to her to talk to her about it. And she's like, you're a battler, but sometimes, you know, like stop battling people who are actually trying to help you, you know? And you're right. So it does eventually sink in. And we see that then when he comes to the I, this curse thing I love too, because I'm not like a huge sports person, but I think curses and like, superstition is big in the sports world. Right?  


Jeff    00:18:51    

Yeah. It's huge. Yeah. All the rituals, how you do stuff, how you go on the pitch, all that stuff. Yeah. The rituals before the rituals, after what you carry with you, like a lot of people do have stuff from like, like when they used to play like Peewee football or whatever it is, whatever, like people care about that stuff.  


Dimple    00:19:12    

Yeah. And what's funny though, is going back to the issue of vulnerability, right? Like, so you've got like these like athletes, right? Like these big strong athletes. And so they're not gonna wanna necessarily admit that they believe this. And I love that whole conversation that happens, um, after Dani gets hurt and you know, and I, I wasn't surprised that Ted's like, what, like, why did, why is this the first time hearing about this? And it, it occurred to me. I was like, yeah, like, I'm sure that they would definitely take this seriously. Right. Because that stuff gets in people's heads that just like the whole conversation when they like, started to think about like what they were gonna do about it. And Sam like full on articulates that and says, you know, we don’t, nobody wants to admit that they believe in this hoo-doo voo-doo juju stuff. Right. And, and Roy's like, I don't believe in it. The next second with Ted's like, great. Let's go check it out. He's like, no, you know? And I was like, yeah. Okay. And that whole ceremony was so fascinating to me too, because, and it's really brilliant. Right. Like, I think about like, again, going back to the leadership aspect, number one, it's, it's not shaming people for believing in something like this. Right. And Ted puts himself right out there, right up front. He says, I'm a believer of like all these things. And then you've got like the actual ritual itself. You're bonding over, giving up something that's important to you, but you are also learning so much about the people around you, based on like the choices that they've made and the stories that they're telling. And that's why like Jamie's share is so powerful. Right. Because now we get to see, like, what is it that makes him such a jerk and it's really pain. It's like, it's pain. And it's like trauma and it's fear. And, you know, it's, it's all these things that, again, going back to that, that Allen Iverson piece of it, you know, we don't know what's behind that thing. And you know, people are often so mean or so hurtful. Um, it's because they themselves have often been in that position and you see that recognition on, on the other player’s faces as he's talking. And it's like such a powerful moment.  


Jeff    00:21:18    

I even found a fascinating amount of leadership happening right before that moment. Right. Because you have Sam who goes, and I don't even know who asks him, but Sam goes on his own to talk to Rebecca and asks her to come. And then he also is just like real, like he asked her like, Hey, I'm Sam, because he doesn't know if she knows him. And she's like, of course I know you, but maybe she did it. Like, you know, the fact that she's even knowing the players, I feel like that is progress on her part. And the fact that she actually listens the same, because she could have like, just been like, no, I don't go to these things, you know, forget it. But then, so him taking up a leadership role, even though he's not a leader per se, right, was really big. And then also, um, with the angry guy, the captain,  


Dimple    00:22:09    

Roy, oh, Roy Roy,  


Jeff    00:22:11    

Roy. When they, well, two things that happen that are really fascinating. First they go to a bar. Why did they go to the bar to meet everybody instead of just meeting  


Dimple    00:22:19    

It's the pub,  

Jeff    00:22:20    

The pub, but why did they go to that pub? When they go to the pub it actually, it's so cool because then all of the fans get to be like right there with them. And if I was a fan, I'd be like so excited that they're at our pub together. And they're having an open meeting about whatever it is they're going on. And then this is going back to my attunement because that's one of my themes for this year attunement is they start getting attuned arguing about which [inaudible]


Dimple    00:22:52    

I know that was so,


Jeff    00:22:54    

Hey, you know, and then Roy’s like shut up, like he’s, get back together, but they're all again, attuning, like they're all playing like, and each time they do something small like that is just a little bit of progress. And, you know, trying to tie this to work, I think we put so much effort into doing one thing. And then we expect so much progress to happen. But like, think of Jamie Tartt, he gets benched, he doesn't practice, he plays with Rojas. Then he talks to Keely, all of those things add up to him going and sharing at night. He doesn't do any of that. If one of those things don't happen. And I think a lot of times we put so much pressure on one thing when it's always like a multitude of small steps that come, and then that person still may not walk through that door. Right. It’s a choice. So if he doesn't show up, then he doesn't show up. He didn't show up, like Jamie didn't show up to the bar. So they just assumed he wasn't gonna show up that night and then look outta nowhere coming out. So that I loved all that, that was that whole build-up to that I thought was really amazing.  


Dimple    00:24:10    

Yeah, you're right. I think it was really well done. And my understanding for why they were at the pub was because that's where like that flyer was, that would explain like what happened at the, the stadium and the, in their, um, training room or whatever it is. And there was just so much little like bits of comedy in there too. Right. Like where he's like, so you were saying there's 400 ghosts and then Colin's like, that's too many ghosts. And Richard's like, we cannot fight that many ghosts. Right like, my God, like these like super fit athletes who were like out, you know, you assume that they're like, you know, and they're all just like, no, we can't deal with these guys, which I thought was really just kind of funny too. And I really liked what Ted said, you know, cuz Sam said, you know, what, what can we do now? Like we can't change the past. And he says, you're right. We can't, but we can honor it. And I thought that was really beautiful too, because I think sometimes you have to, right. Like you have to step back and, and honor whatever's happened in order to let go of it and move forward. Right. And they have to let go of this in order to move forward as a team. Um, and so I thought that that was actually really nice too. And to your point about the little steps, that's such a, a great point because, you know, especially like when you think about new leaders, I think this is where a lot of new leaders sometimes get not lost, but like, you know, like they, they get stuck because there's this sense, like, okay, I'm the leader now I've gotta like do the big thing and like, get everybody on the, you know, and, and you, don't like, it's about finding these little moments.   And we talk about this a lot in the, the leadership course that I was teaching, like about finding those little moments to create that connection. And that it's bit by bit, you know, you and I both do a lot of work around psychological safety and that's all psychological safety is it's, it's creating those moments of connection where people can come together, feel like they're getting to know each other in a way that they feel safe with each other. And the more that they have those opportunities, the more that trust starts to build. And the more that they, you know, so that when they're in that space of, you know, something bad happens. So for example, like at the end where Jamie's now gone, you see that Ted is down and now it's like, the team is starting to feel comfortable enough that you see, well, Dani, Dani’s comfortable anyway, but so he goes right away and says, you know, goes to the office door and says, oh, football is life as a reminder or whatever. But you also see like that moment where Ted goes to get the jersey and the whole team is just standing there. And you know, that they know that he, he didn't do this and he's not happy about it. And I don't know that that would've necessarily been the case, but like that idea of leading by example and leading to show, uh, like, uh, following through on your word, like, he's done that so many times over the season now that people have started to trust him and they, they know like they understand where he's coming from. Right. And I just thought that, that, you know, and, and to your point, like I think that it's those little things that make a huge difference.  


Jeff    00:27:19    

It's fascinating that I think a lot of leaders believe it's the grandiose moments, right? It's like, I'm gonna put all this pressure on this one crucial conversation meeting. Yeah. And it's just like, man, I'm gonna put all this pressure on, on doing this team building event. That's gonna bring us all together. And I've been saying this more and more, and I'm like team building events, don't build teams, they just build the character of the team, that's it. They might bridge some gaps where teams that are already doing well before a team's like quite toxic, like doing one thing, you know, and then being like, okay, now we're good. It's just bullshit. It's just smoke and mirrors. And I think the part that is, you know, so sad is, is like, I, he, when he goes, I just got through it. And the night before, like, you know, not only does Rojas come out after which Ted planned. Right. And knew it beforehand, so he's being strategic. He's not just wishing it upon, you know, himself, but then Higgins came through as we’re like, it's just like, so like everybody's helping out. Right. And finally, and the fact that like, at that moment, when Jamie goes, don't throw that in the fire. Like we need to drink that. And then Roy agrees with Jamie, it's the first time I think Roy and Jamie agree in front of the team. And they all start passing the bottle around and of all people to reach out, to get Ted, to come back in the circle, it’s Jamie,  

you know, and also like the fact that, you know, and you've said this already, but just the fact of him sharing the thing about his dad, you're just like, I focus more on like, you know, my mom, my mom didn't care if I was good or not good, just like, yeah. And you're like, oh man, I hate this guy. And now you're getting me to like this guy, like, don't let me like this guy I've been sharing against this guy for so long. And then Jamie starts the chant, till Richmond till we die, I was like, what is going on? Like, this is the huge, this is the win. If nothing else happens for the rest of the season, that is like the biggest win of like Ted Lasso’s career with Richmond, in my opinion, right there. Right. So like, regardless of whether they win or not like that, would've never happened at the beginning. You would've never predicted that all happening. So when Rebecca walks away and I'm like, oh, she's, you know, I guess she's just angry. I'd forgotten that, that she, you know, let him go. So I was like, dang  


Dimple    00:30:12    

Well, and Rebecca realizes it. She sees, and she says it, she says, that is a team united. And you see like in her facial expression and like, and then she realizes that Higgins was part of this whole thing with like, you know, with the Dani thing. And, and she even says, oh, putting the team first. Huh. And like, and so she's starting to see those cracks start to happen in like her big master plan. Like it's not working. Everything she's tried, does not work. And I found that piece interesting. You know, like where she, well, I'll get to that in a minute. But like, going back to what you said about Jamie's mom, what's interesting is like, he says that she just wanted him to be like a good guy and that's all Ted wants. Right? And so he's coming back to what his mom wanted him to have fun, be a good person. That's what Ted wants for his people. Right. And so he's coming back to that. He found that again, but when Rebecca walks away, like the part that really struck me is when she shrugs off the team jacket.  


Jeff    00:31:14    

Yeah. Oh, that was the team jacket. Oh  


Dimple    00:31:17    

Yeah. And I was like, I was like, oh, okay. So like, she, she still, even though it's her team, like I thought that was really powerful when, when Sam said that to her like this, well, this is your team. Yeah. And she's still in that mindset of like, wanting to screw Rupert over, that she doesn't, she's still not seeing like, this is mine now. Like I can do something good with this.  


Jeff    00:31:43    

What did Sam say to her, she said something else to her. Do you remember that? Of like,  


Dimple    00:31:48    

Was it about, I like knowing that people get famous for what they've done in the world or something like that, rather than,


Jeff    00:31:55    

Not who they are  


Dimple    00:31:57    

Or who their family is,  


Jeff    00:31:58    

Who their family is. Yes. That part struck me. What did you think of that part? I felt like there was something that happened there with her.


Dimple    00:32:05    

There is a, a noticeable facial expression and it makes you wonder if it's like having to do with, you know, like she inherited this team from her husband, you know? And so is she famous for that? Is she famous? You know, like, I, I don't know. Like I  noticed there was something on her face. Like she had a momentary thing happen. What came up for you?  


Jeff    00:32:29    

Well, I try to think of like, again, the beginning. Right. We have to like shed our identity. Right? And her identity has been well, think about it. Not only is their identity has been that she's Rupert’s. Right. But now she's old Rebecca. She's not new Rebecca. She's now old Rebecca and reacting to old, like old Rebecca would cower or old Rebecca would, but she's like, well, now I know I'm gonna become new Rebecca, new Rebecca is gonna get rid of Jamie, new Rebecca's gonna, so she's trying to claim some identity or some new identity. I'm kind of sensing that, but she doesn't know why. I don't know if she doesn't know why she's doing. I mean, she kind of knows why she's doing it. She knows why she's doing it, but I don't know if she's getting the joy that she thought she would get out of it.  


Dimple    00:33:19    

Yeah. And what was interesting was going back to that old Rebecca new Rebecca, one thing that really came up for me, uh, was I just kept thinking like, it's, so going back to like these double standards for men and women, you know, like it's, so if the tables were turned and there were, there was like, you know, the women, and then there was like the new guy she was dating. And the, the previous guy let's say the guy's name was John, for example, it would never be old John new John, it would be John Smith and John, whatever. They would probably use their full name or whatever to differentiate that. But like,  


Jeff    00:33:56    

Or they would just call her like sleazy or like yeah,  


Dimple    00:34:00    

Yeah, yeah. Or exactly like, she'll be on her. Exactly.  


Jeff    00:34:03    

Well, yeah. It's like, look at her, just meandering around such a floozy or some horrible misogynistic term like that. Right. But for that, for the guy, it's like, look at him, look at, look at killing it.  


Dimple    00:34:17    



Jeff    00:34:18    

If you think of like the playboy, what was his name? I forgot what his name was.  


Dimple    00:34:22    

Hugh Hefner.  


Jeff    00:34:23    

Yeah. Hugh Hefner, same thing before people forget Donald Trump was like loved back in the nineties with like Home Alone and stuff, because he dated all these supermodels. Right? Yeah. Like, it's this celebration of just these misogynistic gross ass dudes.  


Dimple    00:34:40    

Yeah. Yeah. But that really, I was just like, oh, you know, like this old, new thing, like, and, and again, that gets in your head when she threw the paper in the, the bin. Like, I, I really wondered, like, and, and then she said, fuck the haters. Like I was like, does she really mean it though? Like, you know, is she really letting go of it? Or is it? I mean, I guess she's trying, it's not that easy to do. 


Jeff    00:35:05    

She's saying, fuck the haters, which resonates with the team because they're like, yeah. Most, most people have already given up on her team. Right? That's why they feel it. She's saying, fuck the haters, because she hates the media, but she also saying, fuck Rupert again. But you can tell that she’s, I feel like she's still in conflict because I think the biggest hater is herself.  


Dimple    00:35:29    

Oh yeah. I hadn't even thought about that, but that's so true.  


Jeff    00:35:33    

She's the hardest on herself than anyone else. Think about it, Sam praises her and she's like Keely praises her. She's like, uh, you know, Keely's literally Keely literally says something that's so positive psychology focused where she's like, feel your feelings. And if you need to call me and then call me like that’s powerful for her. I'm like, yeah. Keely's like, show it up like a real friend, like not telling her she can’t feel that way. Not telling her what her feeling should be, but being like, feel your feelings and reach out to me when you're ready.  


Dimple    00:36:05    

And she's so comfortable. Like, I love that she's got her unicorn planner and she's just like, yeah, I'm a business woman, whatever, you know, I love her. She's awesome.  


Jeff    00:36:13    

And even when she's walking on the treadmill with Roy, what, what was Roy reading?  


Dimple    00:36:18    

He's still reading A Wrinkle In Time


Jeff    00:36:20    

Still reading A Wrinkle In Time. Huh?  


Dimple    00:36:22    

Like, I feel like, but I feel like he went back and started it over because he had gotten to the end when he read it to his niece. Right. And so I feel like he's back reading it again, like to, to like gain more wisdom.  


Jeff    00:36:34    

Oh, I also, also as a leader, he's reading it in front of everybody else.  


Dimple    00:36:39    



Jeff    00:36:40    

So anyone else that does a book will probably like pick it up. Roy in many ways, people don't realize Roy stepped up as a leader a lot in this episode from telling like the team to shut up, to tell, to going first, you know, in the, you know, the, the fire thing with, you know, the blanket.  


Dimple    00:36:58    

Yeah. And then he is like all defensive, like say something. I was nine years old, you know? Uh, yeah. I love that. But I wanna go back for a second to Jamie being returned to Man City and like this idea of leaders who gaslight their people. Like, I felt like this was a major gaslight, right. Because first they have that conversation in the hallway where she brings us up to him up to Ted and Ted's like, and the, and she says, you know, if, if you're plan, like, Man City feels like if you're planning to, to bench Jamie anyway, they'd like him back. And he says, that's not my plan. Like my plan is for my plan to work, which is to have Jamie out there with the team and all that stuff. And then when he burst into our office and he says, you gave it, you know, you traded him back or whatever. I don't remember exactly what he says. And she says, well, I thought that's what you wanted. Right. And it's like, um like on what planet? Like he literally said, no, my plan is this. And then he did everything he could to get the team together. Right. So at what point would you even potentially have thought like, oh, he wants me to get rid of Jamie. For some reason that thing hit me hard because I have definitely worked with leaders where you have expressed what you wanna do or whatever. And then they will pull the rug out from under you and then make a comment like that to be like, oh, well, I thought, I thought it was helping. Or, and, and it makes you like second guess yourself where you're like, did I say something? Did I do something to indicate that? Like what, what happened? You know.  


Jeff    00:38:35    

That’s interesting. You say that as I was talking to a consultant friend just yesterday and he was bringing up the fact that a company brought him in to do certain things. And when he started doing those things, they were like, we don't want those things, and just like, well, you brought me in to address these issues, but now you don't want me to address these issues. And then I was like, well, what percentage of the places you consult with do that exact same thing. It's like 80%, like where they bring 'em they bring like a lot of people want to address DEI. Right? A lot of people want to address having different conversations. But when you actually ask them to do 'em, then they're like, I don't wear. So I think that’s why that's such a stark contrast. It's not only that she gaslighted him I think in this episode, she's gaslighted him since he came  


Dimple    00:39:26    

Oh, a hundred percent, hundred percent.  


Jeff    00:39:28    

So, but this is the first time he's realizing it because he's like, I thought you brought me in to win. I thought you brought me in to bring the team together. And now you're directly self-sabotaging and I thought we were on the same page and I still made these biscuits and they're excellent. I finally finished the batch. So he finally reveals to her in his anger that he makes them for her. That's how like frustrated he is, yet he's still willing to like,  


Dimple    00:39:59    

I still don't think he thinks that she was doing this from a bad place. Like I think he still trusts her to a degree.  


Jeff    00:40:09    

I think, I bet he's lost some trust in her. I don't think he ever really, you know, until, I guess he tells, she tells her something like that, but I don't think he knows that she directly wants to sabotage the team. But for the first time he is not in attunement with her at all. Like, and I'm trying to be like, he's always trying to find some sort of connection with her. And for the first time he just wants to say mean things to her. And then she wants him to say mean things back because he's like, well maybe you should leave before you say something you’ll regret because it would also be great if he said mean things to her that she fires him, the team is ruined and you know, all of her things that work out. But it also reminds me about Rebecca is that, you know, and it reminds me of anything of, of like hurt people hurt people. Right. So hurt that she is willing to hurt everyone around her that is trying to be nice to her just like Jamie, right? Just to prove a point to some person that doesn't even think about it.


Dimple    00:41:12    

Exactly. That's not even there, that's not even in the receiving end. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So good. So good. There's one other thing. Oh, I dunno if you caught this, but I thought this was really funny was uh, before Rebecca and Keely talk about like the unicorn planner and all that stuff, Higgins is in there and he says several unemployed gaffers have, have been asking about the opening. And so I just, I was curious like I, and I paused like to get the names and stuff. They're actually real like real managers, like real Premier League managers. I just thought that was so funny.


Jeff    00:41:50    

But also as that part of Higgins was it Keely says something and then Higgins, like if I said that,  


Dimple    00:41:56    

Oh, cause she tells her to fuck off when she says you couldn't find something that didn't have a unicorn on it or something like that. Yeah. And then when, like when Higgins, uh, says, if I said that to you, she, and she just starts laughing and she's like, that'll be all.  


Jeff    00:42:09    

Okay. So then what are your takeaways from this?  


Dimple    00:42:14    

Yeah. Gosh, there's so many – the other, sorry. The other thing that I just remembered was the semantic satiation. We didn't talk about that at all.  


Jeff    00:42:20    

No we didn’t talk about that yet. Yeah.  


Dimple    00:42:22    

But I thought that that was actually like just these little bits of like, I, I've definitely experienced that. I think most people have, right. Where you just like say a word enough times and then you're like, wait, it doesn't even sound right anymore. So I thought that was kind of funny.


Jeff    00:42:36    

That's actually interesting because then it's this idea like the, the meaning of it is lost 


Dimple    00:42:41    

Yeah. And there's so many places where you could apply that probably throughout this, but we didn't really talk about what our last lessons were. But for me, I think I had said one thing and I, I couldn't remember, like I was like in my head about something else when we talked last time and I couldn't remember what my thing was. And then I wrote to you afterwards and said, actually, I think I'm gonna work on, uh, not, um, you know, trying not to have expectations. And yet again, you know, uh, very easy to say, very hard to put into practice. And it really just, it takes so much intentionality. And what I realized is like, you know, if it's something you don't care about, it's much easier to not have expectations, but when it's something you care about, like your ego really gets involved and it's, it's a lot harder. And so I think there's like this line that you walk and trying to figure out, like to what degree, like how, how do you manage those expectations? And then like practice non-attachment though to whatever the outcome is, you know? And so, so it was definitely challenging. And I had to like keep coming back to try to remind myself that this is what I was doing. Uh, it didn't come naturally, but this week from this week's thing, I think going back to that idea of you just don't know what the person in front of you is going through or that you're engaging with is going through and trying to have a little bit more compassion. Like, you know, when you call customer service line or when you are engaging with someone at the grocery store or whatever, like sometimes it, you can find yourself getting frustrated over nothing that's that important. And so I'm, I think this week, like I really want to try to work on remembering that everyone's like going through something and especially these days with between like COVID and like the political situation, like whatever it is, like people are going through a lot. And so just trying to remind myself of that before I get frustrated, um, in different situations.  


Jeff    00:44:46    

Ooh, I love that. I, I thought of what, what I, I was working on was, was finding attunement with people, which was both really helpful because there were times when, Hmm, it was tough, but there were other times where I felt like throughout the holiday break, I had opportunities to like attune with my sisters, attune with my nephews, attune with like random strangers that I was connect with. And I had this moment with these two people that I guess I had just met. And there was such a level of like attunement as such a level of like understanding. Actually I had that multiple times, interesting that I was just like, oh man, this is, this is amazing. Right now, I'm getting back on dating apps, gross. And the difference between talking to somebody virtually and lacking attunement. And when I'm like talking with someone, someone naturally and just being like, oh my gosh, I can just be my nerdy self around you. And you can be your nerdy self around me. I'm like, ah, I just need to find more of that level of energy because that energy just, yeah. You know, makes me thrive. So the thing about this year, my theme, or one of my themes for this year is like, is like good habits. Right. Good habits and like gratitude. And, but I think I'm gonna add this part of it is like, it's the small progress, man. It's the Kaizen moments it's like, little, it’s the little, instead of thinking like, oh, I failed or not failed.  


Dimple    00:46:24    

It's like, it's not all or nothing.  


Jeff    00:46:26    

It's not all or nothing. And also you shouldn't attach yourself to the outcome because I think of this thing I saw in TikTok recently, Tom Hanks was talking to a bunch of actors, Shia LaBeouf, you know, Jamie Fox, all these like famous actors. Right. And he was just like, one thing I've learned from my career is, is just, you wait, right? Like just, you wait, like things are going really badly. Just wait. And then all of a sudden you feel as if everybody gets you, just wait. You know, it's always ebbing and flowing and that's shouting out, uh, our friend Paul Sockett, I took his claim, um, his space workshop where we were literally taking things and like looking at them and not he even just Marie Kondo-ing them, but really, you know, deciding whether I wanted to get rid of something or not. But like, what does it mean? You know, what's the facts behind it? Like how did I get it? Does it still define me or not? And in many ways it was very similar what I was doing yesterday. And I totally forgotten that I had done that was very similar to what they were doing by like letting the stuff burn. It's just like, by me getting rid of, I don't know, like this, this thing I have in my hand, whatever it's, this happens to be a plastic phone here. Okay. Getting rid of something that I feel is so important to me, do I lose the energy of it? And I think a lot of times we think if we get rid of something, either physically or mentally, if I let go of my grief, like, do I lose the memory of the person? Right. And it's just like, like that whole process is fascinating to me. So as I go into this year and go into this week, I'm going to give myself, I'm like purging stuff this week. So I'm gonna give myself any credit for any progress that I make. That's what I'm hoping to do.  


Dimple    00:48:30    

Awesome. All right. Well, we'll figure out how that goes next week. Can I add one more thing? So the burning of the items, I thought it was weird that they would do that on the pitch when like that first episode, when they even walked on the pitch, like Nate was like, get off the pitch, you know? Like, isn't it weird that they put like a burning, like a heavy burning, um, I'm sure people are gonna be like, uh, stop looking into this so deeply. But like I just thought that was funny. I was like, would they really do that on the pitch?


Jeff    00:49:02    

Also look how more comfortable it is, they're all on the pitch when they're not, they're also on the pitch when, I mean, they're drinking on the pitch. I mean, there are so many things happening on that pitch. Right.


Dimple    00:49:15    

Anyway. All right. Well, thank you so much. This was, um, yet another fun discussion. It was so nice to see you after the holidays. And, um, yeah, I appreciate you.  


Jeff    00:49:26    

I appreciate you too. Thank you so much. And thank you to everyone for listening. We'll see you next time.


Dimple    00:49:32    

Thanks so much for listening to What Would Ted Lasso Do. If you got any nuggets of Ted Lasso wisdom from this episode, try them out in your life and let us know what happens at @wwtldpodcast on Twitter, Instagram, or at our website, where you'll also find a full transcript of the show. We love hearing what other Ted heads took away from the episode or details or perspectives that we might have missed.  


Jeff    00:50:02    

And if you do like the show, please subscribe and head on over to Apple Podcast and leave us a five star rate. It all helps. We don't know exactly where, why, but it does. So in the spirit of believing in hope, believing in believe, please help us out  


Dimple    00:50:20    And thank you to Podify and Sam Davidson for producing our show to Kajal Dhabalia for our visuals and graphics and Kenzie Slottow for our theme song. And most of all, thank you to all of you for listening.  


Jeff    00:50:31    

Ted Lasso could simply just be another show to binge watch. Or if we challenge ourselves to consistently ask the question, what would Ted Lasso do? It could change the trajectory of your life. It has for us.


Dimple    00:50:47    

So join us again next time as we explore another episode and ask ourselves, what would Ted Lasso do?