Season 3 returns on Monday, May 1st!
June 14, 2022

Trent Crimm, The Independent

Trent Crimm, The Independent

What does it take to be a leader? What’s the connection between leadership and kindness? And what does psychological safety have to do with it?

This week we dive into those questions as we explore the themes of Episode 3, including leadership, psychological safety, kindness, and bullying.

Join us for the conversation and share some laughs as Jeff dishes about his 24-hour date and notices an homage to “Ratatouille,” while Dimple shares the story behind her fear of soccer balls.

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“The leader doesn’t always need to be in the trenches. But that leader needs to know what it’s like being in the trenches. The leader needs to know that they are not above it. ” – Jeff


What does it take to be a leader? What’s the connection between leadership and kindness? And what does psychological safety have to do with it?


This week we dive into those questions as we explore the themes of Episode 3, including leadership, psychological safety, kindness, and bullying.


Join us for the conversation and share some laughs as Jeff dishes about his 24-hour date and notices an homage to “Ratatouille,” while Dimple shares the story behind her fear of soccer balls.


“Do our actions actually represent our values? If they’re not, what are you doing to actually change that?” – Jeff


In this episode

  • (1:15) Jeff being a panda on his 24-hour date 
  • (7:22) Dimple as a goldfish
  • (10:05) 90-second feeling
  • (13:30) Taking Nate the great’s idea
  • (14:49) Ted’s leadership style
  • (15:11) What is psychological safety?
  • (22:04) Rebecca’s leadership style
  • (25:20) Rebecca and Keeley’s blossoming friendship
  • (27:34) Ted and Trent’s game
  • (32:55) Books in Ted Lasso
  • (39:49) The power of follow-through
  • (47:08) It’s the small gestures 
  • (51:08) Dimple and Jeff’s takeaways


Resources & Links

  • 4 Steps to Creating A Human-Centered Organization

  • Solve Your Problem With Play

  • Jeff’s Positive Psychology Playlist



Dimple (00:00):

Just a quick heads up that these are adults having adult conversations about things that take place on a show where the adults use a lot of adult language, all this to say, there might be some salty language ahead. So please plan accordingly.

[Ted Lasso Show Clip]

Trent Crimm  (00:11):

And though I believe that Ted Lasso will fail here in Richmond, will suffer the embarrassment of relegation – I won't gloat when it happens because I can't help but root for him.

Dimple (00:30):

What would Ted Lasso do? This is a question that we explore. In each episode of this podcast, we take the lessons we learn from Ted Lasso and we apply them to the real world through the lens of leadership and positive psychology. My name is Dimple Dhabalia 

Jeff  (00:45):

And my name is Jeff Harry, and neither of us have ever recorded a podcast. But as Ted Lasso says, taking on a challenge is a lot like riding a horse. If you're comfortable while you're doing it, you're probably doing it wrong.

Dimple (00:58):

We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. And it helps you find new ways to believe. How are you?

Jeff (01:15):

Um, I'm doing OK. <laugh> So I don't know for my last episode, I think I told you I was gonna go on this 24 hour date. Yeah, it's gonna go on this 24 hour date for this, uh, dateable podcast. So overall, how was the 24-hour date? And I was supposed to adopt a, a panda mentality.

Dimple (01:40):

Oh, that's right. Okay. You were going to be a panda. Yes.

Jeff (01:43):

Panda being like, I'm curious, I'm playful. I'm fully present. So I did do that and I did do that for, I believe 23 and a half hours, but it just was too much. I was that exhausted. 

Dimple (01:58):

That last, that last half hour was just –

Jeff (02:00):

Like exhausting. Not to get into too many of the details but basically the first day we walked 12 and a half miles, you know, talked about so much different stuff. The person is very fascinating, you know, interesting, but not playful and plays like one of my core values. And then the second day I thought I did a really amazing thing. I had her go to my friend. I got my friend Ream to open up the inside of her restaurant for the first time, since the pandemic, like they opened it up as a test run.


Dimple (02:33)

 Oh wow. 


Jeff (02:35)

So we were the first people to get to be inside. It was like a really special thing. I don't know if you even realized what special it was. And then we did that. And then the play thing that we, I did was like, we went to the Salvation Army and you could only spend $6 and 50 cents each. And we got to make costumes. Right. And my costume’s, like a top hat. And like this [inaudible], she just bought a sweater. Like that's all she bought, like a sweater that she's gonna use every day. And then we went to my friend, Matt Haney's –

Dimple (03:04):

Wait, wait, what did she like? What was her response to your outfit?

Jeff (03:08):

<laugh> she was just like, oh, that's what you're gonna wear. Oh, okay. And then she was like, well, I'm gonna pick something more utilitarian. And she got a sweater and a hat, you know, as if she was like, going shopping at Target. Right. And then from there we went to Matt Haney's. We went to my friend, Matt Haney's holiday party because he was running for assembly district and there was chicken and waffles and all this good food and grits and stuff like that. And he bought us drinks and I was like, this is amazing, but yes. But anyway, and then, and then we just hung out and more people bought us drinks and you know, it was all this stuff. What, you know, I could go into the details, but I won't. But ultimately at the end of the day, she was not playful. And, and I need that in a partner. So when we went to the podcast the next day,

Dimple (03:54):

Just remind people the premise of this, um, date. 

Jeff (03:57):

The premise of, yeah, the premise of this was, it was a 24 hour date, 12 hours on Saturday, 12 hours on Sunday, 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM each day. And you only could spend a hundred dollars. The premise also was the, do you gain more appreciation and possibly fall in love the longer you spend time with somebody. But I found, as I spent more time with this person, I actually became more incompatible as I started to see more and more stuff that just was, we just weren't aligned. Right. So by the time I got on the podcast on Monday and they had interviewed her first and then they interviewed me, they were like, what's your problem? She's amazing. She's smart. She's all these things. What's your deal? And I was like, well, you know, she's more results oriented. I'm more process oriented. And they were just like angry at that. What this reminds me of. And we kind of talked about this beforehand. It is just, it was frustrating to me because I felt like I couldn't be honest and just be like, yo, these are the ways we'd like disagree because that would just get too in the details. And also didn't wanna talk bad about another person because it's not that that person's wrong. It's just like, they just don't align with me. But I also felt as if someone was telling a story about how I am feeling and I'm like, why are you trying to like, yeah,

Dimple (05:15):

<laugh>, you're like, this is my, my story to tell, this is about how I'm feeling. Yeah, yeah. 

Jeff (05:21):

I'm just sharing how I'm feeling. And then they gave me suggestions on how to get better at dating. And they gave me suggestions like, yes, anding and following your curiosity. And I'm like, dude, I do that. That's exactly what I did this entire, that's the only reason I got through this 24 hours. Like,

Dimple (05:41):

And I love how, like, you're like the improv kind of person who like that's your life anyway is the yes, and and curiosity, and for giving you advice on how to do that.

Jeff (05:52):

Yeah. So it was like, oh my goodness, your, your playsplainingme? Really is that what's…So, you know, as you can see, I'm a little bitter, but like, I really was trying to be a panda the whole time. I was really trying to be curious and present, you know, I didn't pull out my phone. I didn't like, you know, I didn't, when she would be sharing stuff, I was like fully interested, you know? Yeah. Oh, I even bought a care package because she had mentioned she likes popcorn. So I had a carepackage the next day, like I was on it. Right. <laugh> so I was fully in it. But, but the fact that we were just not compatible was like, that's just a reality and sure. And it was frustrating that, that I felt like I was wrong. I was being told I was wrong for feeling the way I'm feeling.

Dimple (06:43):

Yeah. Well, and I just wanna say like all joking aside, like that takes a lot of courage to just even engage in that. So I do wanna acknowledge you for that because I mean, like the fact that you put yourself out there, I'm like so scared to do that. I can't imagine stepping out in that way with someone and then to have somebody tell me that I'm doing it wrong, even though it's like talking about my lived experience. Like, so anyway, uh, just, I am really, um, impressed by your willingness to do that. So yeah. I'm sorry. It didn't go so well, but you know, good, good learning experience. So, so my thing was to be a goldfish and I had many, many opportunities to practice this, which is fine. Like I, you know, I think it's a great concept, but what I found to be really interesting is as I was kind of reflecting on it over the week, I really started kind of putting together the pieces that I think this idea of being a goldfish is super nuanced.

Dimple (07:39):

Like on the one hand it feels like it's just about like, oh, just forget it and move on. Yeah. But I think it's actually more about, or what I felt like it was about was really about self-compassion. Yeah. And not really letting that inner critic take you down in the process. Right. So I teach a class called, um, MPEAK, which is mindful performance, enhancement awareness and knowledge. And it's really like, it explores the cross section between mindfulness and performance. And so we talk about this a lot in the course and you know, and it's this idea that like, if we're in any kind of a, a performance situation, we want to have that goldfish mentality. Right. So that if you're an athlete and you mess up, um, like, you know, like on the show, like where Sam, you know, messed up, he was getting down on himself.

Dimple (08:25):

And, and that's when, when Ted says that, you know, just be a goldfish. Right. And, you know, the idea is we're not gonna get in our head and then have that be the thing that, that, um, gets in the way, like that's often what gets in the way anyway. And so one of the first examples for me that came up was even just like right after we recorded last week, there was an example that I had given about something. And I just like, kept replaying it in my head. And I was like, oh my god, like, that was just such a stupid example. Like, why did you say that? And, you know, people are just gonna be so bored of this. They're not gonna wanna listen, da, da, da. And so you can find yourself like reliving the past and getting stuck in the past.

Dimple (09:07):

And then you start thinking about the future that hasn't even happened yet, where you're like, oh, you know? And so for me, it was like, oh my gosh, nobody's gonna wanna listen to this. Like, it's terrible. Um, instead of, you know, the goldfish piece is like, okay, I'm gonna bring in this self-compassion. So in that moment, like, because I noticed that I'm in this spiral, I can stop myself and say, all right. You know what? It was one example, I'm my toughest critic. Anyway. Like it probably wasn't as bad as I thought it was. And if it was like, that's okay, like it happens. Right. And I gave plenty of other great ones, you know? Right. And so you can like bring yourself back into the present moment and not be stuck spinning in the past or the future. And so for me, like that was really what came out of this idea of, of being a goldfish was really just being present to where you're at and not getting stuck, you know, in the past or the future. So

Jeff (09:58):

That, that sparked for me, I'm trying to look for the quote, but it was, um, this professor that was talking about how you feel a feeling for about like 90 seconds. And then you have this choice of whether or not you want to continue to feel that feeling or not, you know, and go down the negative spiral. Or do you wanna like, change your mind at that point? It's funny how we keep doing it. It's like these 90 second intervals of, of oh yeah, by the way, you're a horrible person. Hey, did I remind you? You're also a horrible person. Hey, <laugh> just in case you forgot, you're still horrible. And it's like, we get this choice each time, but at the time we're so good at getting into the negative spiral. We've like gutted for so many years. It's so hard to catch yourself, right?

Dimple (10:45):

Yeah. Yeah. So, so let's jump into this week. This is one of my favorite episodes, I think, of this season for a lot of reasons. So today we're talking about season one, episode three, Trent Crimm the Independent. So it was written by Jason Sudeikis, Bill Lawrence and Brendan Hunt and directed by Tom Marshall. Uh, a lot of like big themes. So definitely leadership, right? Yes. So, so many different styles of leadership, which we can dig into, creating psychological safety, uh, was another one that I really like tapped into. And then the other one that really came up for me was, um, like the power of kindness. And we talk about kindness, like in that realm of positive psychology, but there is really something very powerful about and kind not being like, oh, you're a pushover or whatever, but like kindness is really a superpower. And then obviously like the bullying and the harassment, which was happening on two different levels, which I thought was interesting. So I don't know. What did you really notice? Like,

Jeff (11:47):

Well, well, I mean, just from the beginning, I thought it was really interesting, right. Ted walks into Rebecca's office. Now I remember their names. I'm very happy. So Ted walks into her office.

Dimple (11:57):

So am I

Jeff (11:58):

She's angry that this story has not run yet, yet he brings her the cookies and she's like, she like sniffs the cookies. She's like, she's like, I need these cookies. Ah, it's amazing because she, you know, both wants to destroy him, but she also was now beginning to like, need him in a way, which is really interesting. And I think that is what's happening with each and every character throughout it is, each of them are like, Ugh, this guy is a waste. And also now it's like, it's getting it's digging in. So I first found that to be fascinating, was like, okay, okay. He's starting to make inroads.

Dimple (12:38):

I noticed that too. Because there were two scenes like twice where he brought in the biscuits and both times, like it's just become such a normalized thing. And yeah, it, I was like, how many weeks have passed? But it's only been two weeks because he says, you know, like in the scene with Beard, when they're talking about the strategy, uh, he says Crystal Palace kicked our booty last week. So that was, you know, Crystal Palace was his first week. So it's only been two weeks and he's already like, it's now become like just the power of like showing up and doing that. And it's just normalized now where she she's not even fighting him coming in anymore to give her the biscuits

Jeff (13:14):

It's expected yet. At the beginning she was just like, I never have time for this. She still is now saying she doesn't have time for this, but she's making time. Which is really interesting. Yeah. She's now just planned this out as part of it. So I thought that was really powerful. And then I loved when they started taking Nate the great’s ideas, like this

Dimple (13:37):


Jeff (13:38):

Is what every organization should do. Like, and, and I won’t go far too far into it, but you know, my friend Ream,

Dimple (13:46):

No, go far

Jeff (13:47):

<laugh> oh, well my, my friend Ream, you know, who opened up her Ream’s Restaurant, she has one in Oakland, but she opened  one in San Francisco. And it was a really big deal. Like she's like really awesome and everything, Palestinian bakery, but she opened it up right before the pandemic. So it was like open for like a week or two weeks. And then the pandemic like shut it down. So, but she had, she asked her staff, what ideas can we do in order to like keep this thing going? And she came up with so many ideas because it really did not matter whether you were like line staff, you know, waiter or like whatever. She was like, I want all the ideas. And I feel like that’s what Nate the great was. Right. And then later on when Trent was like, you're getting it from the kid guy, you're getting it from this person. And he's like, yeah, why not? I'll take ideas from anywhere because I don't know this game. So I'm gonna respect whoever knows this game, regardless of title. And I was like, Ooh, that is a really great lesson.

Dimple (14:50):

Yeah, for sure. And you know, and I think that's like that piece of leadership. Right? So Ted's leadership style is just so emotionally intelligent. Right? Like he, he can see like where people have the potential to excel and he leads by inspiring and empowering people around him. Right. And the thing with, with Nate was I think it also, like this was the scene for me in particular that when I started thinking about psychological safety. So like, uh, I also do a lot of work with this with clients. And, and so for people who don't know, you know, psychological safety is this idea that we can show up in the workplace, say, you know, what we need to say and trust that, like we're not gonna be, you know, punished for it or, uh, regarded badly for it. Like, there's just a sense of safety that we have that we can show up and be ourselves.

Dimple (15:41):

And I loved that. You can see like in Nate and how he's carrying himself. Like when, when Ted asks about you, you know, do you have an idea? He's like, uh, no, no. Well, yes, no, no. You know, and he's like, he's not sure what to do because nobody's ever asked him that. And then I love that they, you know, so Ted's like, well, you know, share it, like tell it you're, you're one of us. That's what he says. Yeah. Um, come on now, you're one of us, go ahead and fire away. <laugh> when Nate does give them the idea and he says, whoa, you know

Jeff (16:11):

Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're screaming at us.

Dimple (16:14):

Well, first Nate's like, well, you know, he prefaces it with like, it's not even a great idea. It probably won't even work and da, da, and that's when Ted's like, I really have a hard time hearing people who don't believe in themselves. So I'm gonna ask you again, like, do you believe that this idea will work? And then in that moment Nate's like, well, yeah, I do. And that's when he's just like, why are you screaming at me?

Jeff (16:34):

Why are you screaming?

Dimple (16:35):

And I love how Beard just jumps. I love that too. And how Beard just jumps right in, can't even miss a beat, like he's on the floor. And then the other part of that. So, so right. Like to me, it was like already, he's like creating that space where he's letting Nate know like, look, but he also had, he set realistic expectations because, um, after Nate walks him through the plan, he like hands it to Beard. He's like, all right, let's try it. And Nate goes, you're gonna use my play? And he doesn't say, yes, we are gonna use it. He says, we're gonna try it out. 

Jeff (17:09):

Try it on. We're gonna try it on

Dimple (17:10):

Try it exactly. Right. And like, and I love that because he's not promising like, Hey, you know, your idea’s the shit, and we're gonna do it. And you know, but he's like, it's not an empty gesture, you know? So, uh, yeah. I really, I, that was

Jeff (17:25):

What I also love about that is it's very experimental. Right. It's very playful. It's very like, Hey, we're just trying. I mean, we're, you know, we're trying everything right now. So we're open to this and I love that idea of trying it on. Right. I think they, yeah, sometimes say that stuff in like [inaudible], but it, it fits this idea of like, you know, I'm gonna, maybe I'll wear it out of the store. Maybe I won't, I don't know. Yeah. But like, but they're having fun with it. And then when they actually put it out on the pitch and they see how much fun the team is having on it again, the team is now trying it on and being like, does this fit us or not? And the only person that doesn't feel it fits is obviously the guy that's not getting the ball, Jamie. Right. But then what I loved about that part, well, even before that, I loved that part where then Ted challenges him all to run a race with him. And again, he is like, it's playful, but it's also competitive. And again, he's building rapport. It’s only two weeks in and he is already like, you know, people are already getting a little bit more loose, not that loose, but a little bit more loose.

Dimple (18:34):

And I, what I liked about that running scene also is like, it's not Ted just being like, you guys have to do this. He's in there with him, you know, he’s in it. And I love it. Yeah. I love that kind of leadership too. I once had a, um, a boss who, it didn't matter how high up he had gotten. Like he, uh, I still remember, like we were overseas on a trip and, you know, he was part of like this official delegation and all this stuff. And they were supposed to take a plane out to this refugee camp where we were gonna be interviewing, which was probably like a six or seven hour drive from Bangkok. And then that, you know, like the high level official pulled out and all this stuff. And so the flight got canceled and everything. And so he was like, can I bum a ride with you guys?

Dimple (19:15):

Like in our van, you know, like that. And he like came with us and he like spent time with the team and it was not like, this is like someone who's like three levels above us. It's like, he's one of us, he understands. And he would always like step in to like, you know, if he, if somebody needed help with an interview or if they needed help with fingerprinting or whatever, like, he was always willing to just like step in and actually be a part of it. And I remember talking to him about it once and he said, well, look, you know, like how can I lead the people around me if I don't understand, you know, the, the work that they're doing? And I just, that always stuck with me, you know?

Jeff (19:52):


Dimple (19:53):

And it's such a beautiful way to lead

Jeff (19:54):

In my opinion it’s the only way to lead. And what I mean by that is like, that leader doesn't always need to be in the trenches, but that leader needs to know what it's like to be in the trenches. And that leader needs to know that they are not above it. 

Dimple (20:09):

Right. Yes.

Jeff (20:10):

There’s so many leaders now that are like, I'll never do the other jobs ever again, even for like an hour. And it's just like, well, then you don't, stop telling people what to do. Stop giving advice on a job you did 10 years ago because it doesn't even work that way anymore. And you're still trying to give advice. So it's like, yeah.

Dimple (20:31):

And you know, to what you said about your friend who wanted like ideas from everyone, right? Like, and how Ted wants ideas from anyone. Right. He says, I'm on the prowl for new ideas. Right. And there's something like, if you think about, as a leader, that's so much pressure to put on yourself to be like, I have to know everything. Yep. And yet, so many leaders do that, right? Like they're the only ones who know everything. They're the only ones who can do it. And it's like, why wouldn't you rely on everyone around you? Because that's like, you know, in this case, like 30 additional brains, as opposed to just one or 30 additional like forms of creativity and ideas being expressed, as opposed to just what's limited, you know, from my limited knowledge. And so it, a hundred percent makes the leader stronger, you know? Um, but it's interesting where people start to feel threatened around that.

Jeff (21:22):

Well, this is where it ties into, you know, like white supremacist, male patriarchal, like culture of work. Right, right. Where you're taught that you're supposed to be an individual, you're taught that you're supposed to know everything. You're taught that because you're at the top, you should know all the answers. And then you think if I ask Nate the great, right, and he does give me good advice, well then maybe he's better than me, you know, so I'm not gonna ask anybody and I'm just gonna do it all by myself because that's what a leader is. And it's just like, yeah, that's the antiquated, old version of leadership. I don't think that will survive in the future. In my opinion.

Dimple (22:02):

I don't think it will either. But let's contrast that then, you know, so like Rebecca's style of leadership is just, it's toxic, right? Yes. So it's narcissistic, it, there's a lot of bullying, harassment, you know,

Jeff (22:15):

It's constantly having to lie to her about where he is and what he's doing, you know? Like he's like sitting on the thing, like he's been there for a while. Like, you know, like he's lying. That's what happens in toxicity, right?

Dimple (22:31):

Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And like, you just can't show up as yourself, you know? And, and then she just puts him down all the time. Like the things that she says to him, and now I was gonna say, when she says that he's equally proficient, when he says I'm not a spy, Rebecca. And she's like, you're equally, you know, he's, I'm just a director of football operations. She's like, yes. And, and equally proficient at both. And initially he is like, yeah. And then he is like, oh, you know, and it's, it's hurtful.

Jeff (22:58):

Well, well, even that, but also the fact that like, he's lying and she knows he's lying. Like that's how toxic it is. And you've seen that so much in organizations where people are like, everyone knows everyone else is lying, but no one wants to point out the lie. Or even they’ll point, like in Rebecca's case, she knows, she knows and she points it out. Yeah. And she's also like, you know, you'll probably stab me in the back, Higgins, and really the whole time Higgins is just like, I just wanna do good things. Like, yeah. Like you're asking me to be as toxic and mean as you. And that's just not me

Dimple (23:35):

It's not me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's interesting. Right? Cause like, in the first episode, when she tells him like, oh, I'm taking this team down, he starts to have like this, I don't know if you noticed it, where he is like, yeah. You know, like he keeps like, and he says that it feels like something stuck, you know, like in his chest. And we'll see that come up over the course of the season. Right. Because he, it's so uncomfortable for him yeah. To operate in that way.

Jeff (24:01):

So this brings up something else that I think sometimes we forget, right. The kindness aspect that we had talked about, it really does have a ripple effect. So think about it. Like, so Ted is so happy that she's gonna stop them from running the story. Right. Not knowing that she's the one who created the story in the first place or whatever. So he asks her first like, oh, can you do something? And Keely's in the room. And then when she tells him later on I was able to stop the story, and he's like MVP, MVP. He tells Keeley and  all of a sudden Keeley, who a lot of people probably don't like, comes outta nowhere and starts being nice to her. So even without him telling her, Hey, like Keeley, you should go hang out with Rebecca. Just because Ted was nice to Rebecca. And then Rebecca supposedly was nice back, then Keeley was like, okay, now I'm gonna reciprocate it. And the ripple effect starts happening. And then all of a sudden, Rebecca is getting compliments from like this model. And you can tell like, wow, Rebecca, hasn't had a friend in a really long time. And when was the last time she got complimented on like her body or complimented on all the things that she does? And that was fascinating just seeing that whole domino effect.

Dimple (25:21):

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing about that though, with the Keeley-Rebecca thing is just, I love seeing, and I've read this so much too, really solid female friendship being created where it's not about tearing each other down and things like that, even though Rebecca starts off this way. But what's interesting to what you were just saying is like Keeley is actually intimidated by Rebecca, right? Yeah. So she says that to Ted in the last episode, around the panda-lion thing that she's so intimidated by her. And I think to your point, the kindness piece, I think it made like some of that wall come down to where she felt like maybe she could connect with her now. Because you know, she, she wasn't as scared. Like if, if the person's gonna be kind to me, then there's nothing to be scared of about them. And, and she says that to you, I'm not gonna be scared of you anymore. Right. I thought that that was actually really lovely too. And their friendship is one of the things I love, um, about this series, as it progresses to show women actually lifting each other up that way.

Jeff (26:19):

Yes, yes. Right. And that the story wasn't like their friendship in relation to a guy, it was just like their friendship. Right. Yeah. But I find the other part that's really cool about it is also it's Keeley that probably gets Rebecca to bring down her guard. Ted does as well. But it's Keeley that has, because like probably Rebecca up until this time, because she's had to protect herself so much, she hasn't had anyone that she can like trust or confide in or, and the fact that she even showed the picture to Keeley – 

Dimple (26:54):

I know I was surprised

Jeff (26:55):

Is like a really big thing. And then to get, yeah. So like that's even a risk as well. Right. She could have also shooed Keeley out. Oh, I can't even think about this. She could have also shooed Keeley out of the room, but because Ted has hung out there before now, like Rebecca's willing to tolerate that person, even if it's for like three minutes. Right. 

Dimple (27:17):

Like I think you’re right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like she, she lets her sit down, she lets her put her feet up on the sofa.

Jeff (27:24):

Like she could have been like get outta here and bring, yeah.

Dimple (27:28):

Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Uh, but the kind, going back to the kindness piece, like I also think, uh, to your point about the ripple effect, looking at like Ted and Trent Crimm, you know? Mm. And because from the minute like Trent Crimm has been like so rude to Ted in the press room and like, uh, and even when he shows up on the pitch that day, he's just like, hello, Ted Lasso from America. <laugh>. Yeah. And then when he confronts him about like, you're letting you know, you're trusting, uh, a major or premier league, um, attack to a Kitman, you know, like he just he's so like confrontational and things like that. Yeah. I mean, that's part of his job too, as a journalist, I guess. But, but Ted, like from the first minute, you know, like he reaches out to shake his hand and he's just like, you know, I'm really looking forward to spending time with you and you know, and like that whole, like thing to the point of where by the end, like Trent is like bought in, you know? Yeah. He's just like, okay. Yeah. This, and, and like at the end where, uh, Trent leaves the restaurant and Ted's just like, you know, I just wanna say, I really enjoyed spending this time with you today. And he goes, you actually mean that don't you?

Jeff (28:41):

You really believe that don't you? Oh my gosh.

Dimple (28:44):

You know? And it's like, like that was like his strategy, right? Like, you know, what you do with tough cookies, you dip them in milk. So like it's

Jeff (28:53):

Literally dip them in milk. And the other part, Trent Crimm, is it Crimm or Grimm?

Dimple (28:58):

Crimm, Crimm

Jeff (28:59):

Crimm reminds me of – remember Ratatouille, that food critic? That one over at the end, you know? And I think the part that I love about Trent is that they're playing completely different games. Trent is like, I'm ready for this adversarial battle between you. We're gonna, it's gonna be the battle of the wits.

Dimple (29:23):

And he even says, let the battle commence.

Jeff (29:25):

Let the battle begin. Right. When he is chopping the, but he, but he thought the battle was the whole time. And Ted's, Ted's playing the curious game. Like he's not trying to win. That's the whole example. That's why he keeps emphasizing. Like, I'm not, you know, I don't really care about the successes and, and losses. Right. The winds and the losses. So like, while Trent is going around like a Roomba looking for dirt, Ted's like, Ted's like, go ahead, like look around, like, you know, you get to have access to everything. And then it's funny because even when they then go to the charity auction, the charity where like, you know, Roy plays with the kids and blah, blah, blah. Trent's like, oh, what a coincidence that you planned this today, again, thinking that Ted is playing that game. That Ted thinks this long ahead, this far ahead and be like, oh yeah. Well, we gotta set this up because this is how Trent thinks. And I think a lot of people do that all the time where they think you think how they think. I'm adversarial. So you'll be adversarial. And by the end, Trent has realized his game is not really fun. And he actually enjoys Ted's game more.

Dimple (30:35):

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff (30:36):

I don't want, I don't want to berate this guy. Like, that's one of the best lines. What is the line that he says? Although I believe Ted Lasso will fail, I won't gloat when it happens, because I can't help but root for him. Like, ooh, ooh.

Dimple (30:52):

Like that whole like montage at the end was beautiful. And, and, and the lines that really in a business that celebrates ego, Ted reins his in. His coaching style is subtle. It never hits you over the head. Slowly growing until you can no longer ignore its presence, whether that means allowing followers to become leaders. And then he goes on about the Indian food and stuff like that. But like, yeah. I mean, it, it sums it up perfectly, you know? 

Jeff (31:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And then to think outside of Trent, that whole idea of like giving out the books, right. Phil Jackson used to do that with the bowls, as well as with the Lakers. He would give books out. Now will most of those people read it, probably not, but the ones that do, the ones that do like, you know, Jamie like tosses it, right. He's, he's already shown he's not bought in. But the fact that Roy, even though he hates Ted, he's reading it to his niece, that he is like,

Dimple (31:48):

That's awesome

Jeff (31:50):


Dimple (31:51):

To Tiffany


Jeff (31:52):

It is having an effect on me. And you can see that Ted is having an effect on Roy from the beginning when Roy starts to mimic Ted. And it's like, a really bad like, ‘I'm from Kansas, whoa,’ but it's digging into him. So from the beginning, you're like, okay, he's already having an effect. Right. Because he's already like, Roy's already pissed off. And when, uh, I thought this was one of my favorite parts is when Roy goes in to be like, are you gonna do anything? And he goes, well, I've learned, you know, what did he say about the bully? Um, I'm trying to look for it now, but the whole idea of like, yeah, if the teacher tells the bully to stop bullying, then you know, they're gonna continue.

Dimple (32:33):

They're gonna do it more. Yeah.

Jeff (32:35):

So he's just like, well, you're not gonna do anything. And he is just like, yeah. And then afterwards he's like, that's the first domino. And it was like, oh,

Dimple (32:42):

I love that

Jeff (32:43):

Two weeks in recognizing the domino, but then also being very subtle about it as well, you know?

Dimple (32:50):

Yeah. Not hitting them over the head. No.

Jeff (32:53):

Yeah, no, because he could have told Roy to do that and then it wouldn't have worked out.

Dimple (32:58):

I wanna pause on the books for a second because books are like a really big thing in this show. And what's been interesting, uh, as like I said, in the, from, in the past, like I've dived deep into these Ted Lasso groups on Facebook. Um, but like all these books have been like super analyzed and it's really interesting cuz they've, they've been very on point with things. And so there's a great article by Danica Ellis. Um, it's called Overanalyzing Every Book on Ted Lasso to Predict Season Two. <laugh> I won't talk about the predictions because I don't wanna give away. Um, but I will say she, she did a pretty good job. Um, but so Sam was given the book Ender's Game and he's also at one point reading, like I think a Harry Potter book <laugh> she makes. And so Danica makes this point about, it's interesting that Sam keeps getting these books with authors who have transphobic and homophobic views, but she talks about like, I had not read Ender's Game, but it's it's she talks about how it's, uh, potentially a message to Sam, not to let himself be underestimated, like Ender he's been plucked from obscurity and has to make it a new environment, make it in a new environment.

Dimple (34:02):

This is also a story about imperialism and understanding the other, which is appropriate. And Sam just reminded of, of that, of the

Jeff (34:10):

True. That’s true 

Dimple (34:11):

And then Jamie gets The Beautiful and the Damned, which is, um, about being obsessed with the past and status and wealth above everything else.

Jeff (34:19):


Dimple (34:20):

Uh, it's a tale about mortality and just, you know, like everything's like surface level kind of. Right. And then Roy gets A Wrinkle in Time. Do you remember reading this?

Jeff (34:30):

I barely remember reading A Wrinkle in Time, but I remember like the movies and stuff like that.

Dimple (34:35):

Yeah. I feel like I read it in like fourth grade or something, but yeah,

Jeff (34:39):

I think

Dimple (34:39):

We all, I mean, yeah, like, but I don't remember it at all, but yeah. So we already kind of have a sense of what that's about because Trent Crimm explains that for us

Jeff (34:49):

I love that Trent Crimm comes in to explain that part for him

Dimple (34:52):

Yeah. And especially because like Roy has just gone off on Ted and, and the other thing about that was like, um, this idea of mind games, right? Like we'll hear that a lot over the season. Like, and so I feel like somebody else said, said in a previous episode, but Roy says it, this one, you know, like I'm just waiting, you know, like I'm, I'm done with the mind games and gifts and you know, and, and to your point, like going back to this idea that like, this is the kind of leadership they've had up until now, right? And so they don't believe that somebody could really come in and want to empower them and um, help them become leaders. And I think that's when I was thinking about leadership as a theme, that was another element. So there was the emotionally intelligent leader, the, uh, toxic leader.

Dimple (35:35):

And then there's the everyday leader. And that's what Ted is, is creating in this, you know, like when he talks about not caring about the wins and losses, but really wanting to create the best version, like helping the, the, the players become the best version of themselves on and off the field. And that's really everyday leadership. Right. It's like being able to show up and, but then we see it play out as Roy also like when he confronts Jamie in the locker room and it's just like, you know, do you recognize the influence that you have on the people around you? Right. And so how do you use that influence for good, uh, rather than the way that Jamie's been using it.

Jeff (36:10):

And, and Roy actually was nice to Jamie. Like he praised him, like he could have just, he could have berated him at that point, but he gave Jamie an opportunity to be like, Hey, I'm coming to you as a leader. Now I want you to become a leader. And then Jamie's like, forget it. I'm gonna do whatever I want. And that's when Roy's like, okay, I actually need to step up. Like, yeah.

Jeff (36:34):

I think the other part that, what was there was something else. Oh, I think also going back to Trent for a moment, Trent, I think going to the soccer charity school thing probably thought, oh, this is where Ted is gonna pretend that he's so amazing. But instead Ted is like playing with the kids, like, you know, and you know, he doesn't know and he gets booed and Trent's like, ha ha. He's getting booed. Like, look at that. Just like everyone else. But then when Roy, like embarrases Ted right in front of Trent, he's like, oh, okay. Like realizes like, and he realizes like, oh, you weren't actually doing this to impress me. Like you're letting me right in the middle of all of it. And then at, I think at that point, I think Trent's, uh, defensiveness goes down a little bit and then probably, and I'm sure he doesn't do this usually, but um, Ted's like, Hey, you wanna get dinner? <laugh> like, are you hungry?

Dimple (37:33):

Yeah. Are you hungry? 

Jeff (37:34):

You know, like, so, so it's again, it's like slowly making progress on Trent slowly making progress on Roy slowly making progress on Rebecca. Like it's interesting in each and every, yeah.

Dimple (37:46):

Yeah. Did you ever play soccer as a kid?

Jeff (37:49):

I played all the way through high school.

Dimple (37:51):

So I played like when I was in elementary school, like on one of those like community teams or whatever, and this scene just makes me laugh so hard about the headers. Right. So first of all, I think it's really cool that Roy gives positive feedback to every single person. Even like that's the little, the one

Jeff (38:07):

That missed the ball.

Dimple (38:09):

<laugh> he's like, like

Jeff (38:11):

  1. Whatever.

Dimple (38:13):

And even when Ted goes through, he like compliments Ted. And then when Phoebe like kicks the ball in Ted's face.

Jeff (38:20):


Dimple (38:20):

Roy comes over, he’s like good job, Phoebe. But I remember when I was playing soccer and it was, you know, I was pretty young and like, I, I was so scared of the ball hitting my head and they used to make us do those drills, you know, where they'd like. And so I'd always duck. And one time my dad happened to like come to practice and he was just like, hell no. And so he like came out and my coach was like my next door neighbor. So, you know, like my dad knew him and stuff and my dad just stood there and kept throwing the ball at my head because he was like, you can do this. You can do this. And it was just so like, I laugh at it now, but it was but

Jeff (38:56):

So traumatizing

Dimple (38:57):

It's so traumatizing. And so this, that seems,

Jeff (39:01):

It hurts when you're a young kid.

Dimple (39:03):

Yes. It does.

Jeff (39:05):

Like, you're supposed to hit it right here, but most kids have it right here. And then you're like,

Dimple (39:10):

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, but it always just makes me laugh now. So <laugh> like, um, yeah.

Jeff (39:17):

You were getting retraumatized as you were watching the headers

Dimple (39:20):

Slightly. Yeah.

Jeff (39:22):

Oh my goodness

Dimple  (39:22):

Uh, yeah, but I love that you see a different dimension of him too, though. Right? Like that, that relationship that he has with his niece is just, it's so adorable. And the first time they're coming out onto the field, he's got, he's holding cutie's hand. He's got her with him. Yeah. As they're coming onto the field. And like, so you start to get a little bit of a like, oh, like this guy is not just like this gruff, whatever. Like there's something there, you know? And so, yeah. I love seeing that.

Jeff (39:50):

Something also interesting that I just like had a realization on is the power of follow through, the power of like following through on your word. When Ted goes to that guy's restaurant or his dad, the guy, you know, the, the driver's dad's he's like I say it to everybody, I don't actually mean it, or I don't actually believe anyone ever is gonna do it. And it's fascinating that he actually comes through and follows through with it. I, I used to go to all these conferences. I would give out these ridiculous bow ties. I would give my business card.

Dimple (40:23):

Wait, describe, describe for the person. Cause they can't.

Jeff (40:26):

So yeah. So I have these, like, I am wearing this Lego bow tie right now. Um, and I used to, when I worked for this STEM organization, we had thousands of these Lego bow tie. So I bring them with me to conferences, but I also would say to people, Hey, if you email me, I will give you one. And for every 10 business cards that I would give out to be like, Hey, email me. And I'll just mail you one for free. Only one person would get back to me. Sometimes it was like one out of 20. Like it was amazing how much people didn't believe it was actually real. Yeah. So when you actually do follow through, when you actually like say you're gonna do something and actually remember, because I was like, who is that guy? Oh yeah. That guy's from when they picked him up from the airport from two weeks ago, he still remembers that guy and also remembers his name. Remembers his name.

Dimple (41:20):


Jeff (41:22):

Come on man. And then what was so interesting about like the whole hot food and like being like, give us whatever you want. It reminds me of a, I don't know of that podcast where they eat like hot wings or whatever it is. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But the eating of hot stuff, disarms Trent, he can't even start to fight him and ask him all these questions because he is like, I just can't do this. Like I just can't. Yeah.

Dimple (41:46):

His question is like, so destroyed

Jeff (41:48):

His question just like gets destroyed. And then he is just like, it's, uh, I think I'm, I think we're done. Like the whole battle that I was supposed to have with you, I'm just not gonna have this battle, you know? So it's in again, like all this. Yeah. And also now they were in it together because now they're both trying to eat that hot stuff and just try to tolerate it and then Trent’s like I'm out. But that also was a shared experience between them too. Yeah. So I found it interesting.

Dimple (42:15):

Yeah, I really like that. So I wanna shift and talk about, um, the other thing that I noticed was like the, and obviously like, it was a big part of this episode, uh, was the bullying piece. So there was like the bullying that was happening in the locker room. And I feel like there's a part of it where like, there's like parallel tracks. Like there's all the stuff that happens in the locker room, not just bullying wise, but leadership wise. And then there's the parallel track of what's happening, like with Ted and Rebecca and like the higher level, you know? And, and I was thinking about that in terms of an organization too, because like what you see happening at your leadership level is what ends up coming down into, you know, the workforce or, or whatever. So in this case, the team, and I mean, I don't know that they've seen Rebecca, uh, treat Higgins that way, but I feel like they, they have to probably right.

Dimple (43:06):

Because yeah, like we don't see it on screen, but like the fact that she says to him stuff to him in the hallways and stuff like that, people are around. Right. And so like she, as the leader has like been setting that tone. Yeah. And now you've got Ted coming in and setting a completely different tone. And so you see the locker room start to split that way too. Right. Cause now you've got like Roy starting to like follow into that piece. And then you've got like Jamie, Isaac and Colin who are still just like harassing Nate. Um, and really, you know, and you, you hear him just pleading, like, please don't do this. Please don't do this. You know, until like Roy finally steps in and, and, and says something, um, which is him like stepping into that role as a leader in that space, you know?

Jeff (43:51):

Oh, I love that. I, I didn't even, so, so this kind of ties in with what we were saying earlier. Right. You know, we find ourselves a lot of times when we were working with an organization and being like, Hey, are you ready to do this work? Like, are you ready to create these psychologically safe workspaces? Because for that to happen, you have to be bought in as a leader. And there's so many times when people talk about leadership, right. Or talk about like, we're gonna take some action. This happened a lot around Black Lives Matter last year where so many organizations were like, we're gonna do this thing. Um, and then they did their black square and they sent out their email of how they're supportive. And they said they were gonna do a lot of DEI stuff. And then they ended up either not doing it or ended up doing bare minimum. So they could put that stamp of approval of like, look, we did something. Right. And I think we really have to ask ourselves, you know, in organizations, are we really willing to do the work? Right? Do our actions actually represent our values? And if they're not, what are you doing to actually change that?

Dimple (45:04):

Yeah. And having the courage to step into that. Right. So as we see, like Ted's influence start to spread because he has the courage to stand up even, and we've talked about this now, like letting things kind of roll off his back. And, and I don't think, you know, like, I think, again, it's very nuanced. It's not like he's a pushover. And just like, he knows what's happening, he's watching what's happening, uh, like that, you know, that scene from last time where like, um, you know, Jamie's doing whatever he is doing. He sees it in the mirror, um, as he is walking away, you know? And so he sees what's happening and he, and he knows that, but he also knows that he doesn't have to, again, this idea of being subtle about how you're doing it, he doesn't have to be in Jamie's face yelling at him like, Hey, you know, I saw you do that, but, you know, yep.

Dimple (45:47):

Doesn't have to do that because he knows that what he is doing is going to have those ripple effects. And so as we start to see his influence, start to spread at that leadership level, we see that happening, uh, in the locker room as well, where we start to see that, that bonding start happening amongst the team where they have each other's backs and ultimately they have his back. And I just think that it's really, really powerful. And I think it's a, a great, um, example of how, you know, in a lot of these toxic workplaces where it has been a culture of bullying and harassment and other things there, it's not a lost cause, you know? Yeah. You can change things, but to your point, like leaders have to be open and willing to do the hard work. And I agree, like, I think on the DIA front, uh, I do a lot of work on this front too.

Dimple (46:35):

And it is often very performative and, and I'm not saying that, you know, I think people don't know what they don't know. And that's part of the problem is like, they think they're doing the right thing, but they're, they don't realize like, oh, this is not actually going to make a huge shift or, or maybe I'm actually doing some more damage, you know? So that's the other piece of it though, is like, you have to be willing to do that introspection first and then work with other people and that kind of thing. But yeah. I don't know. I just, I, I just think that it's like, this show is so interesting on the leadership front. So interesting.

Jeff (47:11):

Yeah. I also think of just the small gestures of what you said earlier, right? Like how many small gestures does Ted do to show that he has people's back, right? Yeah. The countless gestures he does for Nate, right. The gesture he does for Sam before the game, the birthday before the game, and then after, right? Yeah. The gestures he's done for Roy, the gestures he's done for Keely, heck even the gestures he's done for Higgins and Rebecca. So he's constantly doing all these things, and he's being very patient. Like, again, I can't, I can't imagine it's only two weeks in, right? Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't think someone would have this much effect after two weeks, but yeah. He's being really patient and also not like open to whatever is gonna play out. Like, I don't think Ted is very fixated on like, you know, he could never have planned for Nate to help them with the offense, but because he's curious, he opens up the opportunity for that.

Jeff (48:12):

Right. He probably could never plan that Sam would be shooting because frankly, Sam is a, is a fullback. Sam is on defense. So he shouldn't even be moving. I mean, according to, you know, when I played. He really shouldn't even be meeting up there because then he, he puts the defense at a liability. But the fact that he's coming outta nowhere is such a weird, interesting way of like running that offense. So there's so many things that he's curious and open to trying and that curiosity and the letting go of results. Right. The playing. That gives him so much more freedom that a lot of people can't poke holes in his plan because he is like, oh, okay, fine. I'm gonna move over here. I'm gonna move over here. Like he's not fixated on a certain outcome. Meanwhile, Rebecca is so fixated on the outcome.

Jeff (49:00):

The outcome is like, I need to destroy this team, destroy this team. How do I destroy this team? And none of it's working out her way because the article was supposed to come out. It didn't come out. Right. You know, they were supposed to be fighting. There's not fighting like Trent Crimm was supposed to destroy Lasso. He didn't destroy him. And she's like, ah, like that fixated on one result. What I say all the time is expectations are, are the thief of joy. She's constantly being robbed of joy or robbed of her win because she has such, um, very specific outcomes that she needs to reach.

Dimple (49:35):

Yeah. And I think you're right. And like, I love, you know, I say this to leaders all the time about curiosity being like the number one tool we have in our toolbox as leaders, because for this exact thing that if you can adapt using curiosity and you can, you just have no idea, like what you, again, you don't know what you don't know. And you know, there's all these people around you who have had these life experiences and other things that have such different perspectives and they can bring so much to this conversation. If you are so caught up in, like you said, like the results are just like, it's my way or the highway, like you're missing out on so much, you know,

Jeff (50:14):

On everything, all the fun, all of the opportunities, all of that. Yeah. Yeah. So, woo. I agree. This is, this is an amazing episode, especially because Trent writes that letter the same way, like Ratatouille where the guy's like writing it about like the rat. Like, I didn't think I'd be won over, but now I am won over.

Dimple (50:34):

It's entirely possible that that's like a, a, an Easter egg, because like, they've done a lot of that where they bring in little, you know, like they make references to things. So it's very possible. I haven't, I don't like, it's been a while since I've seen Ratatouille, but, um, I know that they,

Jeff (50:50):

That clip is so it's, it has the same energy. It has such the same energy.

Dimple  (50:58):

Okay. Yeah. Cause they've referenced Ratatouille in other parts of the show though. So I bet I bet you're right. I bet. You're right. Interesting. What lesson are you taking this week to try to, oh,

Jeff  (51:08):

That's a good question. What lesson? I don't know yet. You go first because I have to think.

Dimple (51:15):

I know I was like, I didn't really think about this one.

Jeff (51:18):

So yeah.

Dimple (51:19):

You know, I think I'm, I'm go with kindness. I don't think I'm a mean person or anything. Like that, but I think we can all stand to be a little bit kinder. And so I think I'm gonna test that out this week in just every situation to see like how I can be just a little more kinder in each situation.

Jeff (51:37):

Ooh. I love that. I might have mentioned this before, but Elizabeth Gilbert would talk a lot about how, when she walks into the room, she wants to be love in the room. And I was like, Ooh, I wanna be playing the room. But like, yeah, that's so fascinating to think like, okay, when I walk into this room, I can be kindness in the room and what actually happens because of this. I'm going to commit to observing, do my actions represent my values. Like

Dimple (52:05):

Oh, I like that

Jeff (52:07):

Do my actions actually represent what I actually believe or am I, you know, and where I'm not doing that, I need to start calling myself out on it because if I'm gonna call other people or organizations out and on, on a regular basis and my, my TikTok videos and stuff like that, I should also be doing that for myself. Woo.

Dimple (52:27):

That's gonna be


Jeff (52:29):

That's gonna be hard, my actions represent my values or my actions represent, or even saying my, do my actions represent my words and vice versa.

Dimple (52:37):

All right. Well, I can't hear, wait to hear how that actually turns out, which we will talk about next week when we episode four. Cool. Well, thanks as always and I appreciate you.

Jeff (52:52):

Thanks so much. Thanks everyone for listening. See ya.

Dimple (53:02):

Thanks so much for listening to What Would Ted Lasso Do? If you got any nuggets of Ted Lasso wisdom from this episode, try them out in your life and let us know what happens @WWTLDpodcast on Twitter, Instagram, or at our website, WWTLD, where you'll also find a full transcript of the show. We love hearing what other Ted Heads took away from the episode or details or perspectives that we might have missed.

Jeff (53:24):

And if you do like the show, please subscribe and head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating. It all helps. We don't know exactly why, but it does. So in the spirit of believing in hope, believing in belief, please help us out

Dimple (53:42):

And thank you to Podify and Sam Davidson for producing our show, to Kajal Dhabalia for our visuals and graphics and Kenzie Slottow for our theme song. And most of all, thank you to all of you for listening.

Jeff (53:53):

Ted Lasso could simply just be another show to binge watch. Or if we challenge ourselves to consistently ask the question, what would Ted Lasso do? It could change the trajectory of your life. It has for us

Dimple (54:09):

So join us again next time as we explore another episode and ask ourselves, What Would Ted Lasso Do?